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6 point wrenches


vtfireman85

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On 4/8/2022 at 3:20 PM, mike newman said:

Art

.."In the setting of their sun.....let us not forget the splendour of their noon''......Cecil  Rhodes

,,,your  rather acerbic comment re the British   efforts at advancing technology,   merited this quote.....:)

Mike

That is a fantastic quote. As I'm both busy and lazy, what was the context of the original use of it? Was it in reference to the Empire?

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On 4/7/2022 at 7:46 AM, vtfireman85 said:

What is the actual size of the 1/8” Whitworth? And the 9/16when bleeding i have had to use everything from 5/16 which was a little sloppy to 3/4 which fit ok (i was of course using SAE), i see 8 piece sets 1/8-9/16 on ebay. I also see some used open end sets which may actually be better quality? 

What was that socket that always came in craftsman set that never fit anything like 25/64 or 27/64 something like that I was told it was a British size 

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On 4/7/2022 at 6:46 AM, vtfireman85 said:

And the 9/16when bleeding i have had to use everything from 5/16 which was a little sloppy to 3/4 which fit ok 

I haven't read the whole thread, but in case no one's mentioned these, they work very well:

https://www.amazon.com/Vise-Grip-Locking-Wrench-Wire-Cutter/dp/B00004SBB8/ref=sr_1_4?crid=2YKBMXDVHW05Y&keywords=vise+grip+hex&qid=1696696513&s=hi&sprefix=visegrip+hex%2Ctools%2C248&sr=1-4

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1 hour ago, forwhldrv said:

What was that socket that always came in craftsman set that never fit anything like 25/64 or 27/64 something like that I was told it was a British size 

Those 64th sizes were close enough for some British or metric sizes. I needed some of them on Model A Ford engine and perhaps elsewhere on them. Rod and main bearing nuts were 64ths sizes.

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On 4/7/2022 at 6:45 PM, KWRB said:

I had old Craftsman set from HS, with a few missing. I got the replacements from eBay. My only advice would be to look for an eBay Craftsman set.

Harrumph

I had a 90's Craftsman set purchased second hand from a friend who wasn't really using them and needed the quid for other things but agreed to sell them back when the time arrived, which I did. I then bought the Chineseium Craftsman replacement gear and it's junk. Two ratchets have already failed with the rest on borrowed time while another much older Craftsman set still around is running just fine.

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I ended up ordering 3 sets. One Carlyle set in SAE, those are for the shop. Then a set of gear wrench brand in SAE and one in metric. They are nice, very slim and I am tempted to get a couple sets in 12 PT. 

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9 hours ago, KWRB said:

That is a fantastic quote. As I'm both busy and lazy, what was the context of the original use of it? Was it in reference to the Empire?

Indeed.....although    Cecil Rhodes was a very controversial  character.....He was the owner of a mining company in South Africa....basically   ''founded '  Rhodesia....but his treatment of the ''locals''  left a lot to be desired and even more dead....but a fervent believer in the values of the  British Empire....

Here endeth the first lesson ...!!!

''both busy and lazy..""   sounds like an oxymoron there,, Kurt !!!

Mike

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7 hours ago, Steve C. said:

I have a pair of those, never actually tried them on a nut. 

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8 hours ago, Steve C. said:

I had three sizes. First choice for line wrenches.

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If anyone is curious about Whitworth and British Standard sizes, Here's some reading:

For the 'British' sizes, the nut/bolt size corresponds to the spanner marking (i.e. a 1/2" W spanner fits a Whitworth bolt with a shank/thread diameter of 1/2"). The original Whitworth sizes were standardised in 1841 by Sir Joseph Whitworth (1803-87) and featured a significant head oversize to accommodate the crude tolerances of the production methods of the day. In 1908 the standard was revised to include the option for a finer thread and became BSF (British Standard Fine) and BSW (British Standard Whitworth). The BSW bolts/nuts use the same coarse thread as the original Whitworth proposal, which is suited to soft or coarsely crystalline materials (e.g. aluminium, cast iron), while the BSF bolts have the same thread profile but a finer cut (i.e. higher TPI value) and, with an adequate length of thread engagement, provide a stronger fastener and better vibration resistance for high tensile materials

The BSF head size was one step smaller than BSW (e.g. a 1/4" BSW bolt was the same head as a BSF 5/16" bolt, etc, avoiding the need for new tools) up to 1924 but there was demand for a similar BSW version so the "British Standard Whitworth (Small hexagon)" standard BSWS was introduced in 1929 in B.S. 129 (also known as "Auto-Whit" presumably from its use in the automotive industry). During the Second World War the standards were revised again as "War Emergency B.S. 916 : 1940" as an austerity measure to reduce steel consumption and this resulted in the normal BSW head sizes being reduced by one step, basically making the BSW = BSWS = BSF head size, also bringing them closer to the size range commonly used today:

  • Across flats jaw size = bolt diameter * 1.5 (approximately, only the BA standard has a simple fixed relationship factor at 1.75)

It is not clear post-WW2 if manufacturers returned to the older standard for BSW but it is unlikely as most changes were driven by the adoption of the American and metric systems. The British Standard B.S. 192 of 1924 states that spanners should be marked with both the BSW and BSF sizes, but by 1954 the revised B.S. 192 is referring to "Whitworth large hexagons" so the implication is the WW2 emergency change was permanent and the larger size unusual. That 1954 revision was using the example of 'BS' to refer to the BSF/BSW size and 'W' for the original large hexagon size. Thus you will see spanners marked along the lines of '1/4 W 5/16 BS' indicating the jaws are sized for a 1/4" large hexagon Whitworth bolt, or the next step up at 5/16" for BSF/BSW and that is probably of 1954 or later. However, you sometimes see them marked just as 'BS' and they are the typically the smaller BSF (and WW2-era BSW size), but also I have seen some just with 'W' and referring to the large (original) hexagon size.

Typically you will find BSF/BSW in use in British equipment designed before 1948 (and of course equipment using parts or sub-assemblies designed in that era, for example, some Land Rover gearboxes), or similar equipment from members of the former British empire (commonwealth) such as Australia. One notable continued use of Whitworth's standard is the camera tripod mount, typically they used the 1/4" BSW thread (3/8" is on larger cameras), but recently UNC has replaced this in a rather unsporting move by the standards bodies.

The BA (British Association) sizes were formulated in 1884 and standardised in 1903. Later it was recommended to use them for all sizes below 1/4" instead of BSW/BSF. They are mostly used in electrical and instrumentation applications and continued in common use in the UK more or less until metrication in the 1970s when its use started to decline. Although odd numbered BA sizes have been made and are listed, they are quite rare.  In the UK the even number sizes from 0BA down to 8BA are still readily available from electronic component suppliers such as RS Components, but the smaller or odd number sizes are often only available from model-making suppliers and companies offering parts for restoration work.

The AF sizes (UNF/UNC for Unified National Fine/Coarse) are seen mostly in USA equipment and cars, and British stuff designed from post-1948 (when it was decided to drop BSW/BSF as the preferred series of fasteners) up to metrication a couple of decades ago (say end of the 1970s). There is a 'heavy series' of nuts that have slightly larger AF sizes for a given bolt size, this table just shows the common ones. For smaller bolts they use 'numbers' rather than explicit sizes, but only the even numbers are in common use. Recently, even the USA has made significant moves towards metric sizes due to their international adoption.

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  • 4 weeks later...

This wrench was deep in the corner of the barn. It's rather severely corroded but I was curious and gave it a quick bead blast. Running it on a sander revealed the sizes. It's marked 11/16 and 19/32 on one side and 18mm and 15mm on the other. The maker remains unknown but No.22 is faintly visible.

inch metric wrench 1.jpg

inch metric wrench 2.jpg

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On 4/7/2022 at 12:05 AM, hardtail said:

Just a hunch is the B for British? They had some oddball stuff with thread sizes and wrenches IIRC 🤔

British pipe thread. We have an old Toyota fork truck that has some BPT fittings. I don’t recall if they took sae or metric wrenched but thinking metric

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