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450 clutch TA questions


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This probably doesn't apply to this problem but I thought I'd share my "oops" for others to learn from.  When I had adjusted the TA linkage on the new TA we'd put in the 560 I couldn't get it to shift by pulling or pushing the lever.  I went over everything to try and figure it out.  I showed it to my son and he told me the manual said 13/16" NOT 11/16".  Turns out I needed a set of reading glasses in the shop as well as the house.  Everything worked fine after the adjustment.  Paul

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13 hours ago, snoshoe said:

Read farmerfixemup's post. That linkage can not handle that pressure. To prove a point. Remove the short link and adjust all the freeplay out of the ta clutch. Haul the lever back. Does it release now?

I’m going to have to wait till the weekend to look at the tractor again if I take all the linkage off except for the main clutch pedal and see if I get any difference I’m planning on looking into the bel housing area to look at the main clutch disc to see if it got put in the wrong way to see if it’s hanging up a bit that’s why the main gear shift lever seems to go in and out of gear sticky and when you step in on the main clutch the tractor stops but almost feels like a brake is dragging until you pop it out of gear. I wouldn’t think the TA has anything to do that. 

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22 minutes ago, forwhldrv said:

I’m going to have to wait till the weekend to look at the tractor again if I take all the linkage off except for the main clutch pedal and see if I get any difference I’m planning on looking into the bel housing area to look at the main clutch disc to see if it got put in the wrong way to see if it’s hanging up a bit that’s why the main gear shift lever seems to go in and out of gear sticky and when you step in on the main clutch the tractor stops but almost feels like a brake is dragging until you pop it out of gear. I wouldn’t think the TA has anything to do that. 

Get that ta clutch to release and it won't be so hard to pop out of gear.

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I have both  a 460 and a 560 split here for engine and clutch work. If I put the clutch disc in backwards the spring center hub rubs the flywheel bolts. If that was put together that way there would be some type of noise in the clutch I'd think. 

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6 hours ago, snoshoe said:

I will go so far as to say- head uphill step clutch down and it will not roll back down. 

Yes I did this the other day it won’t roll backwards on a hill 

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If your tractor will not roll back on an incline with clutch pedal depressed, in any gear,then there is only two things that can cause this. Either the TA clutch is not releasing or your brakes are hanging up. If you can get it in neutral while on the incline and will not roll back then you have a brake issue, if it rolls back in neutral then your TA clutch is not releasing. Just reading all these posts and snowshoe is right on. Don't think you have a main clutch issue at all.

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25 minutes ago, mrfred54 said:

If your tractor will not roll back on an incline with clutch pedal depressed, in any gear,then there is only two things that can cause this. Either the TA clutch is not releasing or your brakes are hanging up. If you can get it in neutral while on the incline and will not roll back then you have a brake issue, if it rolls back in neutral then your TA clutch is not releasing. Just reading all these posts and snowshoe is right on. Don't think you have a main clutch issue at all.

Thanks now to figure out how to get the TA clutch to release I’m going to try taking all the linkage off it this weekend to start to see if that makes a difference 

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Was the finger height on the T/A clutch checked. Some are out to much. Pays to bolt them in the clutch carrier and set height before installing into tractor.  But if tractor wants to load engine with clutch pedal depressed the main clutch is not releasing good. 

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50 minutes ago, forwhldrv said:

Thanks now to figure out how to get the TA clutch to release I’m going to try taking all the linkage off it this weekend to start to see if that makes a difference 

Get rid of the middle spring in each group of three in that ta pressure plate and it will work fine

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1 hour ago, snoshoe said:

Get rid of the middle spring in each group of three in that ta pressure plate and it will work fine

I would be rather reluctant to remove any springs from the TA pressure plate.

Those springs provide the force to prevent the TA clutch from slipping under power and were meant to be there.

As the TA pressure plate is bolted to the TA flywheel, with the clutch plate installed correctly, the fingers of the pressure plate will move inward.

That is the pressure plate adjusting to the new clutch plate as everything is now within tolerances.

The setting of the TA release bearing will be a mile out of adjustment now.

So can the TA lever be way off.

As the TA clutch wears, the fingers move out, to the rear of the tractor, and the TA is adjusted to compensate for this wear.

When the release bearing is adjusted correctly, it is very very close to contacting the fingers.

It is actually the spring that holds the release bearing away from the fingers so it doesn't run all the time.

The main clutch arm has a rod running to the TA release bearing arm. 

That is why you start by adjusting the main clutch first and then move on to the TA.

This adjustment insures you can get the transmission out of gear when you push the clutch.

This all happens with very little movement of the levers and arms so being close is not close enough. 

There is a sequence to insure all is adjustments are correct.

Let's assume the TA is new and ready to work.

Follow that procedure to the letter on the adjustments and it should work.

 

 

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42 minutes ago, Diesel Doctor said:

I would be rather reluctant to remove any springs from the TA pressure plate.

Those springs provide the force to prevent the TA clutch from slipping under power and were meant to be there.

As the TA pressure plate is bolted to the TA flywheel, with the clutch plate installed correctly, the fingers of the pressure plate will move inward.

That is the pressure plate adjusting to the new clutch plate as everything is now within tolerances.

The setting of the TA release bearing will be a mile out of adjustment now.

So can the TA lever be way off.

As the TA clutch wears, the fingers move out, to the rear of the tractor, and the TA is adjusted to compensate for this wear.

When the release bearing is adjusted correctly, it is very very close to contacting the fingers.

It is actually the spring that holds the release bearing away from the fingers so it doesn't run all the time.

The main clutch arm has a rod running to the TA release bearing arm. 

That is why you start by adjusting the main clutch first and then move on to the TA.

This adjustment insures you can get the transmission out of gear when you push the clutch.

This all happens with very little movement of the levers and arms so being close is not close enough. 

There is a sequence to insure all is adjustments are correct.

Let's assume the TA is new and ready to work.

Follow that procedure to the letter on the adjustments and it should work.

 

 

He has 9 springs in that pressure plate. Standard is six. The extra pressure causes stretching and twisting in the linkage. Primarily in the cross shaft. Unless the backplate is reinforced somehow.  It also flexes. All of this is lost movement of the fingers resulting in failure to release.

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1 hour ago, Diesel Doctor said:

I would be rather reluctant to remove any springs from the TA pressure plate.

Those springs provide the force to prevent the TA clutch from slipping under power and were meant to be there.

 

 

 

I know of some other mechanics who tried the 9 spring pressure plate and had the same results I did. I called Ag Parts and was advised to remove the 3 springs so did what they told me to do. I'd tend to believe the manufacturer. They said there's too much give in the OEM linkage to depress 3 extra springs. 

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Rainy day today I couldn’t work on the 450 so I went over and unhooked the TA linkage to see if it made a difference it didn’t  and here’s a video of the tractor stopping to roll with the clutch pushed in and in gear and no brakes used 

 

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Don't know if the lighting makes it look that way or not but looks like a 400 clutch pedal. If it has a stop bolt at bottom with jam nut it would be for a 400. 400 and 450 differ on distance between pivot and clutch rod hole.  Still need more info to know what is happening. Turn the t/a operating shaft counter clockwise until you feel release bearing contact t/a clutch fingers. Then adjust the short rod from main clutch to t/a operating shaft short enough until release bearing is just off fingers and try it. May not be the correct measurement but it should release the t/a clutch unless it has a problem to see if it will roll back like you tried. On end of t/a operating shaft between pin hole you should find a number if can make out. IIRC. a 450 shaft starts with 365 and a 400 is a lower number. Looked at picture again, see it has a t/a lever with cast guides for the paw rod. Lever like that was only used on SMTA and early 400 tractors. It would not be a problem though it makes me wonder what's changed on tractor. Don't really mean a lot after years have past but a 450 rear light should be on left side of battery box if it has one. 

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9 hours ago, DWV said:

Don't know if the lighting makes it look that way or not but looks like a 400 clutch pedal. If it has a stop bolt at bottom with jam nut it would be for a 400. 400 and 450 differ on distance between pivot and clutch rod hole.  Still need more info to know what is happening. Turn the t/a operating shaft counter clockwise until you feel release bearing contact t/a clutch fingers. Then adjust the short rod from main clutch to t/a operating shaft short enough until release bearing is just off fingers and try it. May not be the correct measurement but it should release the t/a clutch unless it has a problem to see if it will roll back like you tried. On end of t/a operating shaft between pin hole you should find a number if can make out. IIRC. a 450 shaft starts with 365 and a 400 is a lower number. Looked at picture again, see it has a t/a lever with cast guides for the paw rod. Lever like that was only used on SMTA and early 400 tractors. It would not be a problem though it makes me wonder what's changed on tractor. Don't really mean a lot after years have past but a 450 rear light should be on left side of battery box if it has one. 

I’ll check the pedal and lever were off a 400 that was parted out the lever and pedal on here were worn right out along with outing a new clutch brake  shaft I replaced the pedal and lever. Not even noticing if they would be different I may go over this afternoon and try to adjust the TA linkage again. To see if I can get it not drag. I have been adjusting the linkage with the clutch pedal freeplay first  then with the clutch pedal up adjusting the ta lever with it forward and the small TA arm held counter clockwise by hand  then adjusting the short linkage so the pin just goes in with the arm held counter clockwise then putting it all together 

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Try this... Do the same test only this time hook up the TA handle with the correct adjustment and leave the TA handle forward,(direct drive),move tractor foward just like your video and push in the clutch pedal but do not put transmission in neutral. Now pull TA handle back and when you do the tractor should roll back. If it does not than you have a issue with that TA clutch not releasing. Don't hook the linkage between the main clutch shaft and TA shaft

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3 hours ago, forwhldrv said:

I’ll check the pedal and lever were off a 400 that was parted out the lever and pedal on here were worn right out along with outing a new clutch brake  shaft I replaced the pedal and lever. Not even noticing if they would be different I may go over this afternoon and try to adjust the TA linkage again. To see if I can get it not drag. I have been adjusting the linkage with the clutch pedal freeplay first  then with the clutch pedal up adjusting the ta lever with it forward and the small TA arm held counter clockwise by hand  then adjusting the short linkage so the pin just goes in with the arm held counter clockwise then putting it all together 

400 clutch pedal has rod hole higher from pivot shaft and also end of t/a clutch shaft where short link goes is longer than a 450. Different adjustments were used. With spring and short link pin removed the main clutch free play was set at 1.25 from pedal to pedal rest at deck for 450. With t/a handle forward adjust forward end of rod so pin has a 1/8 gap between it and forward end of slot. Hook spring back up between shafts. Adjust short pin short as it will go without changing position of t/a clutch shaft the pin will slide in. 400 clutch pedal was set to 7/8 free play then stop bolt was set to give 4 inch travel from deck to pedal. T/A handle rod got 3/16 inch at slot. Depending on stop bolt setting the 400 pedal should give more movement to push clutch fingers in. Settings sometimes need different adjustments to work best. At the end you want both clutch fingers off release bearing when done and both clutches engaging smoth with no jerking. Short link or t/a handle link can be used to release t/a clutch but if it doesn't release with short link you will have hanging in gear with normal use. Would be careful on adjusting so t/a clutch fingers depress to far, will lead to trouble. Find some new or rebuilt clutch finger settings to low to work good. One way to check a good t/a clutch release is with handle forward you can't turn engine crank backwards. If t/a clutch releases with handle back you can turn engine backwards. 

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On 4/8/2022 at 5:04 AM, forwhldrv said:

Yes I did this the other day it won’t roll backwards on a hill 

I've hit on this twice now and others have as well... That's normal expected behavior for a good TA that the TA clutch is not releasing. 101% that is the problem.

Bet you it would roll forward just fine.

You should be able to replicate this "trick" with a properly adjusted TA clutch with the main clutch at 1/2 pedal. The tractor should not be able to roll in the opposite direction of the gear selected. Pushing the pedal in the rest of the way should let it roll.

Simply put, you CAN NOT PROPERLY SHIFT a mechanical TA tractor if the TA clutch isn't releasing when you push the pedal all the way down.

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Maybe this explains why I could t get the TA adjusted   So knowing I won’t be taking the 450 to plow days in a few weeks. I dug this one out of storage for plow days instead 

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could you explain the pump hanging off the belt pully. couple of gages mounted on it looks like . possable air compressor,   cant tell for sure pretty good idea what ever it is

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1 hour ago, Matt Kirsch said:

In the immortal words of Mythbusters Adam Savage, "There's your problem!"

On a related note, that is one beautiful 650 as-is. I like the combination of fresh paint and weathering.

Some day will probably paint the 650 as of now when we repair something on it try to paint it  thinking it will be easier to paint it all in one shot later on when some of the spots that are harder to reach are done  she’s a fun tractor to plow with 

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