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450 clutch TA questions


forwhldrv

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Ok so this past fall I installed a new heavy duty TA kit(Ta,Ta clutch and throw out bearing) in my farmall 450 I had bought this tractor 4 years ago it ran good had a recent motor job but it was rough a very well used tractor the TA didn’t work then. This year finally got money and time to work on it. Split the tractor did a rear main seal in it and the clutch looked like new put it back in put the TA in snd waited a while till after the holidays to get it running and out of the shop. I also put the shifter repair kit in the shifter. When I first pulled it out of the shop the ta lever was back  when I pushed it forward to direct it kinda lurched forward while moving and went to direct that’s all the movement that I have gotten out of the TA. I have also noticed thinking it was in the shifter and would loosen up some the shifter was hard to get out of gear when the tractor was stopped. Tonight after adjusting the TA over and over I notice the tractor would shift out of gear hard and if you rolled forward slow and stepped in on the clutch the tractor would stop almost like a brake is on but if you pull it out of gear it will roll a bit  the clutch seems like it’s not releasing all the way to allow you to get it in and out of gear with the clutch pushed all the way in. Is it possible the main clutch disc can be installed backwards ????  It was put ack together the same way as  it was before it came apart but someone had been into it before doing the motor 

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So you're saying, you can't pull the TA lever back and get it into TA?

That's your problem.

Due to the one-way clutch (ramp and rollers) in the TA, the gear train binds up unless the TA clutch is released before you shift. That makes it hard to shift.

In other words the TA is supposed to shift into TA every time you push the clutch to keep the gears from binding. That is what the short linkage that runs between the clutch throwout and the TA throwout does. It needs to be adjusted properly so that it releases the TA clutch at about half pedal. 

If you can't pull the TA lever back, something is majorly wrong in there. You might be able to pull the inspection cover off the TA clutch housing and see something.

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Let's assume the new TA is fine.

But you do need to set the main clutch and the TA in the right sequence.

Get the book out and follow it to the letter.

When you drove it out of the shed and let the TA lever ahead and it lunged forward, that is good.

It went from TA to direct and it should have speeded up. GREAT!

But when you pull the TA lever back, with no load on it, the tractor slows and it is hard to tell it is working.

But it should move slower in TA than in direct.

The can't get it out of gear is a TA adjustment issue.

The small clutch needs to be releasing more to allow gear shifting.

Like I say, get the book out and follow it to the letter.

 

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Don't think main clutch is involved. Do you have any problem putting it in gear after running in neutral? I have another idea. Do you have a nearby downgrade? Will the tractor freewheel with ta back? If it does. Will it freewheel all the way to the bottom or just part way and then lockup again. What I am suspecting is a planet gear 1 tooth out of time.

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So I have adjusted it right to the book  main clutch pedal 1 25” free play then took the spring off the TA arm gently pushed it counter clockwise till resistance and adjusted the TA engagement lever rod so when the pin is in there’s 3/16” of space towards the front of the slot. Then adjusted the short linkage so when the little TA arm is turned counter clockwise the pin will just go in the top hole of the arm with no play towards the back of the slot. With out even bothering with the TA lever leaving it forward when you step on the clutch pedal put it in gear on a very slight incline the tractor goes forward without any problems but when you step in on the clutch to take it out of gear the tractor kinda wants to stop like a brake is dragging  even without touching the brakes with the pedal pushed down and in gear  keeping the pedal pushed down taking it out of gear (which is kinda hard it wants to stick a bit ) the tractor will roll freely out of gear with the clutch still pushed in or let out. The TA I put in is the heavy duty one from Walt’s tractors or A&I I think is where they get them from. The TA before did nothing when I got the tractor 4 years ago no matter how you adjusted the linkage. When we took the TA out this past fall it seemed like the TA clutch wasn’t engaging at all and the inside of the TA didn’t look like it had any west to speak of except for one of the planetary gears only had 19 needle bearings where the rest had 20 my thoughts now with the hard to get out of gear problem is maybe just maybe the clutch disc is in backwards as there is a different off set on either side of it we put it in right the way it came out as the clutch looked good. So maybe the disc not completely coming free of the pressure plate is putting the pressure on the transmission and just slipping against the pressure plate. And maybe it was that way before and I don’t notice the sticky shifter I hadn’t driven the tractor much only off the trailer and tried to get the TA working 

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38 minutes ago, snoshoe said:

In your description of ta adjustment. The short link is to be adjusted with ta lever back clutch pedal down. Your description does not read that way to me. I will say anytime you adjust that link. Recheck freeplay of both clutches after.

So the short link is to be adjusted with the clutch pedal down and the TA lever back. And adjusted so the pin just fits in without any extra room at the end of the slot. I adjusted it with the clutch in it’s normal position and the TA lever in the forward or direct position.  It still doesn’t  explain to me why the tractor seems to have drag in the transmission when the clutch pedal is fully depressed and it doesn’t if you take the tractor out of gear 

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The way I read your adjustment. You wind up with no freeplay on ta clutch. Which could cause over depression of fingers. Would not cause operation problems unless fingers are low to start with.

 Does tractor freewheel with lever back. Tranny in gear. Clutch up?

Many years ago I had problems adjusting these. When I realized it was just two clutches. They both needed freeplay when engaged. They both needed to release with the pedal down. After that I did not need the book or a ruler to make them work.

 

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3 hours ago, forwhldrv said:

So the short link is to be adjusted with the clutch pedal down and the TA lever back. And adjusted so the pin just fits in without any extra room at the end of the slot.

That sounds like book instructions. I would amend to say pin should be tight with pedal depressed. It can move the top of the ta shaft lever but not the bottom. This makes up for wear in ta clutch shaft. Again check ta clutch freeplay when done.

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Is the carrier moving back to the rear of tractor in the video? It is my belief there should not be that much play there. As things get worn some times and extra tad bit of adjustment travel is needed. MY 560 was engaging the engine clutch first and then the TA when letting up the clutch pedal when set by the book. Too many loose shafts and bushings. I have not gone back to repair this yet.

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1 hour ago, VacDaddyt said:

Is the carrier moving back to the rear of tractor in the video? It is my belief there should not be that much play there. As things get worn some times and extra tad bit of adjustment travel is needed. MY 560 was engaging the engine clutch first and then the TA when letting up the clutch pedal when set by the book. Too many loose shafts and bushings. I have not gone back to repair this yet.

My procedure just above addresses that. Well no it doesn't. It addresses the worn shaft. Ta clutch engaging late is opposite problem.

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You didn't happen to put in a 9 spring TA pressure plate did you? Standard is 6. I put a 9 spring in a 686 a few years back and that thing never did work right. I was afraid every time I pulled the TA lever something was going to break. It was hard to get out of gear too. I called AG Parts about it and they suggested it was only for tractor puling which they didn't tell me on ordering it. They said they'd replace it, but I got a sawall and cut the retainers and removed 3 springs. Worked great after that. 

I realize the TA lever is longer on the 450 but just offering a suggestion. 

http://www.agpartsltd.com/shopping/productDetails.aspx?i=1045740

http://dy5vgx5yyjho5.cloudfront.net/images/v2/180x180-R7j4sGO9i6oEx282690.jpg

http://www.agpartsltd.com/shopping/productDetails.aspx?i=1045746

http://dy5vgx5yyjho5.cloudfront.net/images/v2/180x180-wV9H7smL45bx282913.jpg

 

 

 

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This is the ta I ordered and installed. The thing that’s gotten me is the fact that no matter what position the TA lever is in when the tractor is in gear with the clutch pushed in the tractor doesn’t want to roll like the main clutch isn’t releasing all the way I’m starting to wonder if the clutch disc is in backwards it has about a 1/2-3/4” difference and the springs stick  out one side. More than the other so I’m wondering if that’s why it seems like it’s not releasing all the way o have to try to look up in the bottom of the clutch housing to look at that this weekend 

F1BB3765-8628-4043-A52E-E81C450AB819.jpeg

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1 hour ago, beekeep15 said:

was the main fly wheel  ground wrong . the step. 

 

No the main flywheel and clutch looked good without looking at it I’m leaning toward the clutch disc being in backwards. Which may explain when you step on the pedal it’s not completely disengaging as far as the TA goes I’m not even there yet I’m trying to figure why the main clutch still wants to drive the tractor in gear still with the clutch pushed in. I’d think the TA and pressure plate I was sent was the correct one I don’t know. All I do know is this is my first TA tractor adventure and I’m ready to go back to a strait non TA tractor for the time and money and aggravation I have into this tractor so far 

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3 hours ago, FarmerFixEmUp said:

Yes and is this the right one for a stick 450 farmall just wanting a little heavier duty than the stock TA’s that seem to be out all the time 

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2 hours ago, snoshoe said:

Uh oh

What UhOh  I’m planning on trying to look at what I have going on this weekend I can’t take the TA clutch inspection plate off the tractor as the belt pulley is in the way and to get the bolts out of that the gas tank has to come off. I’m going to try to use a bore scope to look up in the clutch housing at the main clutch to rule out the disc being in backwards. Then I’ll go back into adjusting the TA linkages 

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The drag and binding you are feeling are normal, part of the operation of the TA when it's in direct. 

If you can't shift the tractor into TA with the lever, you can adjust until you're blue in the face and it won't make any difference. Maybe I misunderstood, but from your original post,

On 4/6/2022 at 1:15 AM, forwhldrv said:

When I first pulled it out of the shop the ta lever was back  when I pushed it forward to direct it kinda lurched forward while moving and went to direct that’s all the movement that I have gotten out of the TA.

Sounds like the TA is not shifting. Before you start adjusting the clutch-TA interface, you need to figure this part out.

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7 hours ago, forwhldrv said:

What UhOh  I’m planning on trying to look at what I have going on this weekend I can’t take the TA clutch inspection plate off the tractor as the belt pulley is in the way and to get the bolts out of that the gas tank has to come off. I’m going to try to use a bore scope to look up in the clutch housing at the main clutch to rule out the disc being in backwards. Then I’ll go back into adjusting the TA linkages 

Read farmerfixemup's post. That linkage can not handle that pressure. To prove a point. Remove the short link and adjust all the freeplay out of the ta clutch. Haul the lever back. Does it release now?

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