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Jacka
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Just going through my new to me owners manual for my 1026 I bought from Farmalland Auction.I got to the pto section and it was very explicit and said that high horsepower requirements be used on 1000rpm shaft only.Well I thought I never seen in that in my other manuals.I went through 66,86 series,574 and 706.The 1026 is only one that explicitly said 1000rpm only others said 85 hp  and over pto requirements use 1000rpm shaft.It didn't give a reason and I always thought it was just more efficient but maybe it's easier on the tractor to.The same clutch pack is used for both. .Even more of a reason to read your manual before you go hunting for a attachment or just having a salesman say "don't worry about it,it will work".I just thought thank goodness for a owners manual.I think that would be a cool job,putting them together, to think like a farmer,engineer and a mechanic. 

 

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Forgive me, I'm a little confused on your statement here. To me a vague "high horsepower" statement would be more confusing and less informative than a discrete statement of "over 85HP." 

If I'm not mistaken, 85HP is the industry standard limit for the 540 PTO.

Now you're going to get claims of "I've run xxxxx on the 540 PTO with my yyyy. It takes way more than 85HP, and nothing bad has happened." Heck, we ran a CaseIH 600 blower for years and that thing could bring a 150HP tractor to its knees if you fed it enough silage.

Folks just need to keep in mind that this is the "standard." Not a hard limit. Nothing is necessarily going to explode at 86HP. The "PTO Police" won't burst out of the bushes, drag you off the tractor, throw you to the ground, and stand on your neck with a gun pointed at your head if you dare run 86HP through a 540 PTO. It's JUST. THE. STANDARD. Pay attention to it, or ignore it. In some instances you don't have a choice, as certain implements only come in 540 PTO flavors and need more than 85HP to run effectively. In the end if you end up with a twisted off PTO shaft or a busted yoke, it's on you.

This also does not mean that you can't run 540PTO implements with your 1026. PTO implements only require the HP they require. Just because you have a 120HP tractor attached does not mean that 120HP is going through the implement, unless you push it past its designed capacity.

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2 minutes ago, Matt Kirsch said:

Forgive me, I'm a little confused on your statement here. To me a vague "high horsepower" statement would be more confusing and less informative than a discrete statement of "over 85HP." 

If I'm not mistaken, 85HP is the industry standard limit for the 540 PTO.

Now you're going to get claims of "I've run xxxxx on the 540 PTO with my yyyy. It takes way more than 85HP, and nothing bad has happened." Heck, we ran a CaseIH 600 blower for years and that thing could bring a 150HP tractor to its knees if you fed it enough silage.

Folks just need to keep in mind that this is the "standard." Not a hard limit. Nothing is necessarily going to explode at 86HP. The "PTO Police" won't burst out of the bushes, drag you off the tractor, throw you to the ground, and stand on your neck with a gun pointed at your head if you dare run 86HP through a 540 PTO. It's JUST. THE. STANDARD. Pay attention to it, or ignore it. In some instances you don't have a choice, as certain implements only come in 540 PTO flavors and need more than 85HP to run effectively.

This also does not mean that you can't run 540PTO implements with your 1026. PTO implements only require the HP they require. Just because you have a 120HP tractor attached does not mean that 120HP is going through the implement, unless you push it past its designed capacity.

I know, been running larger horsepower than a 1026 on 540  equipment. Manure pumps, generators and blowers will clean the cobwebs out of most tractors. I guess my surprise was how it was listed in the the owners manual and with really no explanation.It was like a definitive statement and never seen something like that before in a IH  owners manual. 

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1 minute ago, Jacka said:

I know, been running larger horsepower than a 1026 on 540  equipment. Manure pumps, generators and blowers will clean the cobwebs out of most tractors. I guess my surprise was how it was listed in the the owners manual and with really no explanation.It was like a definitive statement and never seen something like that before in a IH  owners manual. 

That's a technical writer for you. Usually the ones writing the manual are not engineers, farmers, or mechanics by trade or by knowledge. They are "technical writers" who simply specialize in writing technical publications such as manuals. They have to take what is essentially gibberish from the engineers and turn it into something the average human can understand, hampered by the fact that they usually know nothing about what they are writing.

Ironically I deride the profession yet it is something that I think I would be pretty good at, and aspire to become when my current profession has finally run its course.

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I saw the same statement in our deere 2955 manual last night. It had a sentence about having less torque in the 540 pto, which didnt make sense to me, because when you gear something down to a slower speed you get more torque, but what do I know

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19 hours ago, Matt Kirsch said:

That's a technical writer for you. Usually the ones writing the manual are not engineers, farmers, or mechanics by trade or by knowledge. They are "technical writers" who simply specialize in writing technical publications such as manuals. They have to take what is essentially gibberish from the engineers and turn it into something the average human can understand, hampered by the fact that they usually know nothing about what they are writing.

Ironically I deride the profession yet it is something that I think I would be pretty good at, and aspire to become when my current profession has finally run its course.

I write the install & owners manuals for our company (Headsight).   Its a real chore to write something everybody understands, is clear, and actually gets people to read it.   I've had many days where I get 2 calls on the same day, one that says our manuals are the best, the next that says they are worthless trash and totally un-understandable.   Fun.    

I have the "blessing" to be all of:  the farmer who uses it, the engineer who helped design it, and the guy who has to write about it......AND the guy who gets to answer the questions if they don't understand it......🤨

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Speaking of manuals . . . Copy from another website and sanitized . . .

 

The Fanuc manuals were written in Japanese by a non Japanese speaking guy and then translated into one of those African tribal languages that's a series of clicks and pops, then translated into Hebrew brail so a vietnamese speaking blind guy could translate into english. Then someone put each topic into seven different 1000 page manuals, but in a random fashion. Then the owner of Fanuc was satisfied that the shiftiness of the manuals were in keeping with the shiftiness of the company.

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On 4/4/2022 at 12:32 PM, gearheadmb said:

I saw the same statement in our deere 2955 manual last night. It had a sentence about having less torque in the 540 pto, which didnt make sense to me, because when you gear something down to a slower speed you get more torque, but what do I know

The issue isn't the amount of torque available or the strength of the tractor's PTO clutch, it is the torque limit for the power transmission shaft itself.  Shafts are sized based on torque capacity. Torque and power are related by: HP=(T x RPM)/5252  This means that you can theoretically transmit the same amount of power at 1/2 the torque if you double the rotational speed of the shaft.  Or, you can transmit twice the power at the same torque if you double the rotational speed of the shaft. This is a very simplified analysis, but it gives you the idea.  There is additional complexity involved in terms of balance requirements, the cross section of the shaft, number of cycles, life, and the relationship to fatigue, etc that engineers also use to determine the design standards for those shafts.

The torque at the implement ends up being the same in the end regardless, because you are gearing it back up or down at the implement to maintain the same implement operating speed.  If an implement is supposed to operate at 1000rpm input, when operated by a 540rpm PTO, there would be a 0.5:1 ratio (or 2:1 overdrive ratio) at the implement after the PTO shaft.  When operated by a 1000rpm PTO, it would be direct driven with a 1:1 ratio. 

Savvy engineers often design the reduction drives so that swapping two gears (or sprockets or pulleys) around gives the option for 540rpm or 1000rpm input use.

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On 4/5/2022 at 1:19 PM, chadd said:

The issue isn't the amount of torque available or the strength of the tractor's PTO clutch, it is the torque limit for the power transmission shaft itself.  Shafts are sized based on torque capacity. Torque and power are related by: HP=(T x RPM)/5252  This means that you can theoretically transmit the same amount of power at 1/2 the torque if you double the rotational speed of the shaft.  Or, you can transmit twice the power at the same torque if you double the rotational speed of the shaft. This is a very simplified analysis, but it gives you the idea.  There is additional complexity involved in terms of balance requirements, the cross section of the shaft, number of cycles, life, and the relationship to fatigue, etc that engineers also use to determine the design standards for those shafts.

The torque at the implement ends up being the same in the end regardless, because you are gearing it back up or down at the implement to maintain the same implement operating speed.  If an implement is supposed to operate at 1000rpm input, when operated by a 540rpm PTO, there would be a 0.5:1 ratio (or 2:1 overdrive ratio) at the implement after the PTO shaft.  When operated by a 1000rpm PTO, it would be direct driven with a 1:1 ratio. 

Savvy engineers often design the reduction drives so that swapping two gears (or sprockets or pulleys) around gives the option for 540rpm or 1000rpm input use.

👍🏻, we’ll explained! 

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On 4/3/2022 at 3:01 PM, Jacka said:

Just going through my new to me owners manual for my 1026 I bought from Farmalland Auction.I got to the pto section and it was very explicit and said that high horsepower requirements be used on 1000rpm shaft only.Well I thought I never seen in that in my other manuals.I went through 66,86 series,574 and 706.The 1026 is only one that explicitly said 1000rpm only others said 85 hp  and over pto requirements use 1000rpm shaft.It didn't give a reason and I always thought it was just more efficient but maybe it's easier on the tractor to.The same clutch pack is used for both. .Even more of a reason to read your manual before you go hunting for a attachment or just having a salesman say "don't worry about it,it will work".I just thought thank goodness for a owners manual.I think that would be a cool job,putting them together, to think like a farmer,engineer and a mechanic. 

 

Thats very interesting, i had always known, and heard of folks running generators on 1000 rpm at half throttle, trying to be easier on the tractor and save fuel, never gave it a thought.  Those of course were tractors of all stripes, not specifically IH.

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2 hours ago, vtfireman85 said:

Thats very interesting, i had always known, and heard of folks running generators on 1000 rpm at half throttle, trying to be easier on the tractor and save fuel, never gave it a thought.  Those of course were tractors of all stripes, not specifically IH.

And that works fine with small (10-40kw) PTO generators where the HP & torque are well below the driveline limits.   

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On 4/4/2022 at 9:55 PM, Gearclash said:

Speaking of manuals . . . Copy from another website and sanitized . . .

 

The Fanuc manuals were written in Japanese by a non Japanese speaking guy and then translated into one of those African tribal languages that's a series of clicks and pops, then translated into Hebrew brail so a vietnamese speaking blind guy could translate into english. Then someone put each topic into seven different 1000 page manuals, but in a random fashion. Then the owner of Fanuc was satisfied that the shiftiness of the manuals were in keeping with the shiftiness of the company.

OTC Daihen manuals have the same issue. :D

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On 4/5/2022 at 2:19 PM, chadd said:

The issue isn't the amount of torque available or the strength of the tractor's PTO clutch, it is the torque limit for the power transmission shaft itself.  Shafts are sized based on torque capacity. Torque and power are related by: HP=(T x RPM)/5252  This means that you can theoretically transmit the same amount of power at 1/2 the torque if you double the rotational speed of the shaft.  Or, you can transmit twice the power at the same torque if you double the rotational speed of the shaft. This is a very simplified analysis, but it gives you the idea.  There is additional complexity involved in terms of balance requirements, the cross section of the shaft, number of cycles, life, and the relationship to fatigue, etc that engineers also use to determine the design standards for those shafts.

The torque at the implement ends up being the same in the end regardless, because you are gearing it back up or down at the implement to maintain the same implement operating speed.  If an implement is supposed to operate at 1000rpm input, when operated by a 540rpm PTO, there would be a 0.5:1 ratio (or 2:1 overdrive ratio) at the implement after the PTO shaft.  When operated by a 1000rpm PTO, it would be direct driven with a 1:1 ratio. 

Savvy engineers often design the reduction drives so that swapping two gears (or sprockets or pulleys) around gives the option for 540rpm or 1000rpm input use.

The implement has the same end torque, the drive line holds up best at highest rpm before the drop to correct implement RPM at the last possible time

A 1000 rom shaft can be way smaller than a 540 shaft transferring the same hp . Same concept as a 12 volt start system required less wire size compared to the same thing as a 6 volt 

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2 hours ago, redpower123 said:

I used to have a 1086 that had both 540 and 1000 that’s well over 85hp

You're mixing your metaphors here. The standard limit of the 540 shaft is 85HP.

Tractors with more than 85HP can be equipped with one. However, there is/was a Federal alphabet soup agency (OSHA?) regulation that said tractors over a certain HP output could not be equipped with a 540 shaft. 

IIRC, an 806 will have a dual-shaft PTO factory, but a 1206 only came with a 1000 shaft.

For sure, a 1086 will have dual-shaft PTO factory, but a 1486 only came with a 1000 shaft.

From that, it appears the limit crept up over the years.

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