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New D236 head gasket leaking profusely


Dax DeCelle
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On 3/26/2022 at 1:33 PM, Dax DeCelle said:

I hope this gets the exposure I need. After running it several times, I pulled the head back off. 
#2 is wet. #4 head is, but not piston. The others are not. 
Fuel system is top notch. All just set up and tested. 
Head got the same treatment, and I just pulled the valves and they are fine. Just did “in frame” overhaul. 
I did this overhaul because it ran like this before. 

Is this evidence of head gasket leaking? 

 

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you have a hard time to convince me this head was resurfaced. it is leaking coolant internally causing those pits. just did not happen with a few hrs. of running. also why is it so dirty for something that was just put on?

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Seen many with pitting on #2, its directly below exhaust outlet of manifold. Pitting occured during years of probably outdoor storage and moisture infiltration during that time. Impossible to surface head enough to clean that up without dropping below minimum head thickness. I have more than one 560 here with the same affliction, still run fine and get used daily

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37 minutes ago, rustred said:

you have a hard time to convince me this head was resurfaced. it is leaking coolant internally causing those pits. just did not happen with a few hrs. of running. also why is it so dirty for something that was just put on?

How is the water getting past the fire ring to leak externally? Author stated it started leaking “as soon as he filled it”.... if the head was leaking, the crankcase would be full of water by now. I also don’t see any evidence of water on the head or piston. That looks like fuel in a engine that had a dead miss for a long time.

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Let me try to answer a few of these questions. 
I can’t explain why the head gasket is designed the way it is. The passages that are surrounded by the strange holes with slots are coolant passages. It would certainly be nice if they were surrounded with compressible copper. It seems logical to me that they would leak both inward and outward from there if the gasket were not sealing. 
All that I can say about the shop that worked on the head is that they have an impeccable reputation and I have truly never heard a poor review of their service. They’ve been there as long as I can remember. I’m 46. 
The head is dirty because I ran it for several hours before I pulled it before the current surgery. I have had the head off three times since I’ve owned it. It ran poorly when I got it, I pulled the head for service. It was gone through by the best around. I put it back on and ran it successfully for a several hours over several days. Then I believed that the head gasket lost its seal and I pulled it and did an in-frame minus camshaft. I cleaned the bottom of the head thoroughly and put it back on with another head gasket. The one in the pictures. I ran it for a total of about an hour. It smoked the whole time. I pulled the head back off and here we are. The tractor lived a very hard life before I brought it to the “orphanage.” The pits were in #2 when I got it. The head shop said they were not to be worried about and it certainly couldn’t be shaved enough to get rid of them. He said he took some very small amount off (I can’t remember the thousandth,) and that it should be fine. If someone could tell me that the official IH gasket were superior, I would spend the money, but I’m going to try a Fel-pro and some aluminum paint and cross my fingers. If IH addressed these heads with a solution, I would love to know more. Again, I thank you all for taking the time to analyze and discuss this. 

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8 hours ago, Binderoid said:

How is the water getting past the fire ring to leak externally? Author stated it started leaking “as soon as he filled it”.... if the head was leaking, the crankcase would be full of water by now. I also don’t see any evidence of water on the head or piston. That looks like fuel in a engine that had a dead miss for a long time.

i did not say it was. look at those pits. coolant has been getting into that cyl. somehow at one time. plus if it was planned those pits would no be there.

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6 hours ago, Dax DeCelle said:

Let me try to answer a few of these questions. 
I can’t explain why the head gasket is designed the way it is. The passages that are surrounded by the strange holes with slots are coolant passages. It would certainly be nice if they were surrounded with compressible copper. It seems logical to me that they would leak both inward and outward from there if the gasket were not sealing. 
All that I can say about the shop that worked on the head is that they have an impeccable reputation and I have truly never heard a poor review of their service. They’ve been there as long as I can remember. I’m 46. 
The head is dirty because I ran it for several hours before I pulled it before the current surgery. I have had the head off three times since I’ve owned it. It ran poorly when I got it, I pulled the head for service. It was gone through by the best around. I put it back on and ran it successfully for a several hours over several days. Then I believed that the head gasket lost its seal and I pulled it and did an in-frame minus camshaft. I cleaned the bottom of the head thoroughly and put it back on with another head gasket. The one in the pictures. I ran it for a total of about an hour. It smoked the whole time. I pulled the head back off and here we are. The tractor lived a very hard life before I brought it to the “orphanage.” The pits were in #2 when I got it. The head shop said they were not to be worried about and it certainly couldn’t be shaved enough to get rid of them. He said he took some very small amount off (I can’t remember the thousandth,) and that it should be fine. If someone could tell me that the official IH gasket were superior, I would spend the money, but I’m going to try a Fel-pro and some aluminum paint and cross my fingers. If IH addressed these heads with a solution, I would love to know more. Again, I thank you all for taking the time to analyze and discuss this. 

you are wasting your money on felpro gaskets. i just got the last original victor gasket from olson's gaskets. the guy said that he has some company making a better gasket if i remember right. i told him felpro is useless.  i can blow one of them out in my 660 if i want to just by pulling it hard. plus i have never used anything but permatex high tack sealer on all my gaskets including the head gaskets with good luck. i have never used copper coat or aluminum paint either. i have relpaced lots of these gaskets. put a felpro in then use a soapy spray bottle and spray around the gasket and u will see the bubbles coming right through the felpro gasket. i have tryed and proved this.

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6 minutes ago, rustred said:

you are wasting your money on felpro gaskets. i just got the last original victor gasket from olson's gaskets. the guy said that he has some company making a better gasket if i remember right. i told him felpro is useless.  i can blow one of them out in my 660 if i want to just by pulling it hard. plus i have never used anything but permatex high tack sealer on all my gaskets including the head gaskets with good luck. i have never used copper coat or aluminum paint either. i have relpaced lots of these gaskets. put a felpro in then use a soapy spray bottle and spray around the gasket and u will see the bubbles coming right through the felpro gasket. i have tryed and proved this.

olsons gaskets phone number... 360-871-1207 in washington.  i can tell by looking at your gasket it is a cheapy. not meaning the price. they are about 200.00.

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Sitting here scratching the ol noggin trying to work this one through🤔...not pretending to be any kind of expert or ruffle any feathers....I respect everyone’s experience and point of view

A few thoughts :

 Is it possible that we have two types of leak going on at the same time ???

    The external leaks from poor sealing of the water ports between block and head( possibly poor quality gasket and / or surface imperfections)

     The internal leaks ( into the cylinder) caused by either cracked head , or leakage from behind the new valve seat inserts.

    Was the cylinder head pressure tested before or after the new valve seats were installed ???

    It seems a little strange that the head gasket would leak around the water ports and leak past the fire ring into the cylinder as well.....although it is possible.                ( look at the picture of the cylinder head.....water appears to be leaking at all of the water ports ,but only one cylinder is wet)

Is the sleeve protrusion of the “wet” cylinder ok ???....is compression ok on that cylinder??? ....are we sure it is coolant in that wet cylinder and not Diesel fuel or oil ???

     I have had a situation where a valve seat was replaced and when the machinist bored out the original seat, he accidentally ,Just broke through into the water jacket of the cylinder head and did not realise.

  The new seat was fitted , engine assembled and test run until warm then shut down .

  Some hours later the engine was started and Idled for a short time and then suddenly stalled and locked up solid .....What happened?????

   After the first warm up and shut down , the now pressurised  coolant had leaked from around the valve seat and made its way into the oil pan .....the oil pump then inhaled the coolant, lost all of its lubrication and seized solid , stalling the engine.

   I know it’s quite a long shot , but possible that something Like a leaking valve seat has occurred and let coolant into the cylinder.....let me know your thoughts 

Just trying to think outside the box and pass on a little experience that I have had .

I would appreciate your thoughts and input.........somebody please tell me that I’m completely off my rocker and barking up the wrong tree ....which is more than likely 🤣🤣.... between us all we can figure this thing out

I hope you guys can follow my ramblings 😆

Thanks, Heath, 

NZ

 

 

 

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Does anyone have a factory 236 or 282 gasket available that they can take a picture of and post?

I agree on the water side that those should also be copper rings around those ports.

Did the factory ones use copper?

I also sent this link to FelPro gaskets.

I explained the situation and asked them to look into this.

If they don't blow us off, hopefully we get some answers.

I am leaning towards cheap gaskets but I have nothing to support this claim, yet!

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You said that the block was cleaned thoroughly and checked for problems. What does that mean exactly? Was it done by a machine shop to make sure the block was flat? Seems to me that something is quite a ways off to not be able to run an hour. I would think even a junk gasket would last that long if the head and block were both true. 

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Top gasket has 134400A1 stamped in it, came from CIH, looks exactly like the felpro 8334 that used to be commonly available at napa. Lower one is an aftermarket, possibly reliance but no markings on package or gasket itself. Even felpro uses a rubber washer for coolant passages on right side of head. Cheap gasket came missing 5 of the rubber gaskets. It was ordered from Bates using the ih number 134403A1 head kit. They sent me another, but it failed in half hour, forcing compression into coolant, but no external leaks. My tractor was rebuild less than 10 years ago and block was decked and counterbores machined to set sleeve stand out at .004. Putting a felpro gasket back in and using the spray can trick solved problem for now. When head was off the second time i had it pressure checked and was fine. Good luck!

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On 3/31/2022 at 6:25 AM, Diesel Doctor said:

Does anyone have a factory 236 or 282 gasket available that they can take a picture of and post?

I agree on the water side that those should also be copper rings around those ports.

Did the factory ones use copper?

I also sent this link to FelPro gaskets.

I explained the situation and asked them to look into this.

If they don't blow us off, hopefully we get some answers.

I am leaning towards cheap gaskets but I have nothing to support this claim, yet!

when my original victor gasket arrives i will post a picture.

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On 3/31/2022 at 4:26 PM, 1958560 said:

20220331_161641.thumb.jpg.01520a40576ddfffff026c970f6cf2eb.jpg

So the bottom one is the IH gasket? The only thing I can see different is the lack of seal rings between 2-3, 4-5 and after 6 on the top gasket.

But some of those ports go not carry water through them. They are blind.

Assuming the left is #1 cylinder. 

Also the tangs that hang down from each cylinder fire ring hangs down on the IH and seems to be all over the place on the top one. 

Of course no reply from Fel-Pro yet.

Since this tractor was decked and the head done by a reputable shop, new head bolts, I am then leaning towards a lack of clamping force on the head. My mind seems to think the head has been decked a few times and it is thinner. The block was decked and made the head bolt holes shallower. I would love to be standing at this tractor and take some measurements of the head bolts in the block without the head on and then measure the thickness of the head. But some guys have used ARP bolts and have better luck. Shoot my theory down. 

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4 hours ago, Diesel Doctor said:

So the bottom one is the IH gasket? The only thing I can see different is the lack of seal rings between 2-3, 4-5 and after 6 on the top gasket.

But some of those ports go not carry water through them. They are blind.

Assuming the left is #1 cylinder. 

Also the tangs that hang down from each cylinder fire ring hangs down on the IH and seems to be all over the place on the top one. 

Of course no reply from Fel-Pro yet.

Since this tractor was decked and the head done by a reputable shop, new head bolts, I am then leaning towards a lack of clamping force on the head. My mind seems to think the head has been decked a few times and it is thinner. The block was decked and made the head bolt holes shallower. I would love to be standing at this tractor and take some measurements of the head bolts in the block without the head on and then measure the thickness of the head. But some guys have used ARP bolts and have better luck. Shoot my theory down. 

Bottom is IH and right side is #1, can tell because between 2 and 3 is larger hole in gasket for rocker lube pressure on left (pushrod side). Gasket can easily be installed backwards which blocks off oil to rockers. Some blocks have guide dowels, I've had a couple without, just use a 1/2" cut off bolt for alignment front and rear of block. There are studs available and what I put in. The right side head bolts (exhaust side) go thru what looks like a tube pressed into head, I've seen where the tube rotted out half way down and after torquing, the spacer under head of bolt would press into the head also

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21 hours ago, Dax DeCelle said:

I’ll catch up soon. The 7.3 is down and taking priority…….

Does this engine use guide dowels to locate the gasket and head to the block?

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