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New D236 head gasket leaking profusely


Dax DeCelle
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I’ve just overhauled the D236 in my 606. Head was reworked and shaved ever so slightly by the most reputable engine shop around. Block was cleaned thoroughly and checked for problems. New head bolts from Redrunrite, torqued to 115 as spec’ed. 3 times. As soon as I filled the cooling system, coolant started streaming down the right side of the block. Out of several places along the length of the gasket. Head gasket was nameless in  Reliance overhaul set. What am I missing? 

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Seems to be a common problem anymore. 
Procuring a quality gasket is the issue. Most that come in kits are China junk. Some say Fel Pro are still good. I just had this on a 560. Filled coolant and it started leaking. Plugged the block heater in and got it up to temp and retorqued the head and it stopped. Ran it and retorqued again and got some more. Now I’m getting compression in the radiator. Needs to come apart again. This gasket was from dealer but an A&I never again. 

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These head gaskets have been a big problem , most of them are made in China . Pull the head back off , clean the block and the head spotless clean , have the head bolt holes all blown out , tapped ,threads on all the bolts wire wheeled . Get a new head gasket  and if it has no coating on the gasket then get a can of aluminum spray paint and put 4 nice even coats on the gasket waiting 5 mins between coats , keep tack of what side of the gasket is up and after the last coat set the head gasket on the block then set the head down on the block and make sure you don’t slide it around , install the bolts and start the torque at 25 ft lbs ,then go to 50,75,100 then to the spec . Then get it running , warmed up good bring it back in the shop and retorque it again and go 10 ft lbs over the spec .

‘I tried Copper Coat a year ago on our 1206 pulling tractor and it failed after a couple passes , pulled the head and that coating never stuck to the block or head so it’s back to the old reliable aluminum spray paint like l have done for 40 years . I was taught this buy the old guys and it works great .

Danny

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Its strange that coolant was leaking off the right side of that engine , That's the side with mostly oil passages I did my 84 hydro 4 yrs ago it has the 246 engine it had a coolant leak on the left side but I after I retorqued it , it stopped 

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I figured it had to be the gasket. It looked cheap. I did all the cleaning mentioned. Chased holes, cleaned with brake cleaner, vacuumed out with Mityvac. After I filled the cooling system I plugged it in. It stayed plugged in for hours while I completed several other things. Finally got to priming the fuel system, but never got it to pop off. Starter was getting too hot. It was almost there. I’m going to order a Felpro. It’s the only recognizable brand I can find that offers one. I’m not paying an extra hundred dollars to a dealer for what might be a Felpro. I do hope to get it running today. Thanks for the input. 

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I have heard of block dowel pins being to long after a head was surfaced.

Measure how much the dowel is above the block and then how deep is the hole in the head.

If to tall, knock a few thousandths off with the side grinder.

The dowel just has to align the head gasket and head.

Then look close at your head bolts if you have blind holes in the block.

All the clean, chase threads and clean bolts need to be already done.

Without the head on, run a head bolt down until it bottoms in the hole and snug it a bit to be sure it is bottomed.

Measure the distance from the block to the underside of the bolt head.

Then measure the thickness of the head.

If you are close to having the same measurements, then add bolt stretch and you are losing clamping force.

Also, if you torqued the head and it felt like the bolt was a rubber band, your bolts are to long.

You are only twisting the bolt vs torquing the head down.

The torque wrench should not spring back after you have reached the torque and you let off the wrench.

If bolts are to long, you can add a machine washer under each head bolt or take 1/4" off each with the chop saw.

Your choice!

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There is a very very slim chance that the gasket from the dealer will be anything but a repackaged Reliance. In the last year or two they changed supplies, I assume for all parts and not just the larger engines.

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Just went thru this on my 560. Had a felpro in it that failed on #3 so compression got to water ports. By the way, to my knowledge only water ports on the right side. Had head checked, planed slightly. Felpro head set # 8334B is a good number, but napa could not get one. An internet search showed multiple vendors but nothing in stock or available. Head set from CIH 425, so the mrs found a set from Bates for 170? Ordered 2, showed up, no label, definitely not felpro, head gasket very cheaply made. The water ports on right side were chinsy looking and 5 of the steel/rubber inserts were missing! Bates sent another. I installed it dry at machine shops instructions, usually I coat it with copper cote. Warmed with block heater, retorque and had it idling while greasing the loader. Before I knew it, it was puking antifreeze again. I pulled head again, hard to read the gasket. Head pressure checked, good and flat. I got just head gasket, looks like felpro but no markings, from case, 200, but dealer has open house special so 10% off. Also I have arp studs in this engine. This tractor runs daily loading cattle feed, this is first failure since I put studs in 6 + years ago. Bolts would fail at least every other year. Hope to get it out late today. I will second Danny's aluminum paint trick! 

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  • 4 weeks later...

I hope this gets the exposure I need. After running it several times, I pulled the head back off. 
#2 is wet. #4 head is, but not piston. The others are not. 
Fuel system is top notch. All just set up and tested. 
Head got the same treatment, and I just pulled the valves and they are fine. Just did “in frame” overhaul. 
I did this overhaul because it ran like this before. 

Is this evidence of head gasket leaking? 

 

EB6CE38C-421C-410D-802C-D032BF7CEF72.jpeg

957923E3-A6E3-4E81-B378-DC0FD19FA475.jpeg

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That head is leaking water and it’s been burning water , better get it checked out , psi tested and resurfaced . Better paint your head gasket with aluminum paint when you put the head back on so it bonds to the head and block . Make sure you do a compression test being it’s giving you trouble and check the opening psi on your injectors . 
Danny 

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Has anyone tried using a head gasket made from copper sheeting? I seen them advertised on eBay for various engines, including farmall M’s.  Maybe it could be an option if the quality of dealer supplied head gaskets is poor?

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Thank you for the information. The head was checked, resurfaced, new valve seats, and valve job, done by the most respected shop around. They’ve been there more than 30 years and I’ve never heard a complaint. 
 

I did run it a few hours after the head was worked on, before I took it apart for the overhaul. It ran about like it was after the overhaul, so I thought either the head gasket was bad before and after, or something didn’t take with the head work. I guess I’ll take the head back and have him go over it again. 

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And the injectors were pop tested in front of my eyes by a man that’s been working exclusively on diesel fuel systems since the early 60s. I’m at a loss. 

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If the block and head are as true as they are supposed to be, and gasket is new, and no cracks are present, only thing I can think of possibly water or oil in the bottom of the head bolt port, and it is hydro locking the bolt, giving you an inaccurate torque as well as not letting the bolt pull the head down like it is supposed to .  Hard to say, but that's one thing I know I have neglected a Cple times putting heads back on 

Mark

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My experience with the D282 engine, and other cubic inch variations related to it, you never put that head gasket on dry.  That head gasket needs coated on both sides with copperkote spray, or aluminum spray paint & installed while it is still tacky, to ensure that it bonds to both the block & the head.  It was not the greatest designed engine, and the head gasket was definitely a weak point in their design.  Clean it all up, get a new head gasket, coat it with copperkote or aluminum spray paint, and reassemble.

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14 hours ago, Roy S said:

Has anyone tried using a head gasket made from copper sheeting? I seen them advertised on eBay for various engines, including farmall M’s.  Maybe it could be an option if the quality of dealer supplied head gaskets is poor?

Not on a diesel , no-way I'd trust that  Gm gas engines used the steel head gaskets and it was standard practice to spray them with copper coat to make sure they would seal

 

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On 3/26/2022 at 2:33 PM, Dax DeCelle said:

I hope this gets the exposure I need. After running it several times, I pulled the head back off. 
#2 is wet. #4 head is, but not piston. The others are not. 
Fuel system is top notch. All just set up and tested. 
Head got the same treatment, and I just pulled the valves and they are fine. Just did “in frame” overhaul. 
I did this overhaul because it ran like this before. 

Is this evidence of head gasket leaking? 

 

EB6CE38C-421C-410D-802C-D032BF7CEF72.jpeg

957923E3-A6E3-4E81-B378-DC0FD19FA475.jpeg

Your original question was about external leakage. It seems your actual problem is that it is not running right. The picture of the wet cylinder and head show a not firing condition. Closeup of the head shows pitting from water ingestion. It does look like a crack. It would take pressure testing to be sure. I believe you mention lifters not turning. Have you checked cam lift on the affected cylinders?

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Let’s see if I can write all this concisely. 
When I bought the tractor, it was running poorly. There was obviously a valve problem from the sound it was making. There was also an injection pump problem that caused unsteady idling. There were countless problems from a hard working life with little maintenance. I foolishly started the process of trying to save another IH that had been put out to pasture. I started by pulling the head and having it reworked at the shop I mentioned earlier. Obviously there was pitting from what it is now very clear that was coolant leaking into the cylinder and being burnt.  There was valve seat damage there as well. He said that the pitting was ok and he checked it for cracks and warpage. He said it needed new seats and a very minor shave. While I had the head off, I took the pump to a local legend that has worked on diesel fuel systems since the early 60s. He is officially retired now, but he still works for certain people. He rebuilt the pump. I also had him pop test the injectors. He said you couldn’t ask for better. That part I watched. Certainly looked like a nice spray pattern to me. I then put the engine back together with many new parts and it ran ok for a brief time before it started smoking and running rough. I decided to go ahead and do an in-frame overhaul when I went back in. Did that. Reassembled. I completely cleaned out the head bolt holes with brake cleaner and a Mityvac. New head bolts. Torqued three times. When I filled the cooling system, coolant steadily streamed out between the head and block. After I ran it a bit, the coolant stopped leaking to the outside, but clearly was still leaking to the inside. I installed the head gaskets dry both times. I believe that the aluminum paint is going to be the key to success. The head gasket that was on it when I bought it had clearly been installed dry as well. I see now that that must be the problem. Thank you all for the information and help. 

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It appears we are trying to fix the problem and not the cause.

Is there anyone who would have the IH manuals that dealt with cylinder heads on these engines. 

If IH found a problem, they came up with a cure and sent those out to the dealers.

We don't need to fix the leak.

We need to determine why it is leaking.

When the why is cured, the leak will stop.

THINK guys!

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Looks like the problem is staring at you from the picture. Those four radial slots in what appear to be sealing rings... a straight shot from the water jacket right to the paper of the head gasket. They appear to be steel, so if they refuse to compress any further, the paper can’t make firm contact with the head/block. Wherever copper sealing rings, paper is dry.

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