86 series poor reputation?

[Big Bud guy]

4 hours ago, cedar farm said:

 

Massey. Who cares.

 

Come on what's wrong with Massey    Honestly, that's what we farmed with in the 70s combines and tractors.  And somehow we made it through but we did trade all of it of for better equipment. 

[iowaboy1965]

Really I like em all and if I could own one of everything I probably would, at least long enough to get to know some of the good and bad of them all. 

Almost bought my uncles 4020 powershift 15 plus years ago and still would have liked to. But I couldn't give him what it was worth and bought my 826 instead. It was rough and I spent some money fixing some things. And it's still rough and needs some more stuff fixed. But I really came to respect and admire Ih after owning it a while.

The only red tractor dad had while I was growing up was a Massey 33 with a stanhoist loader to clean out the cattle barn. So it's not like I've only ever been on red tractors. In fact we had a Moline, a ford, several Allis Chalmers and a couple 4020s, one of which dad bought new the summer I was born and it left the farm when I was in high school iirc.

[Farming Enthusiast]

14 hours ago, Eason said:

It was a stock N/A 856. I have to ask this question, Big Bud Guy why are you on here? You hardly ever have anything positive to say about IH.

I've had the same thought

[TractormanMike.mb]

6 hours ago, 1086-7130 said:

Well I'm glad I started this topic, that certainly got off the rails. LOL

I've enjoyed this thread, I think overall its been a good discussion about tractors. 

 

 

[Steve C.]

On 2/15/2022 at 8:40 PM, Missouri Mule said:

 

 

Is that a BWA disk?  I had a 20 1/2' BWF for a while, which was heavier.  It had the half-moon shaped wing spring extenders.

[Super A_sepa]

Can still appreciate something even if you recognize its shortcomings. 

A tight 86 cab is nice and comfortable, but I bet the percentage of them left is less than the percent of tight soundgards. At least in an 86 I have room to put my lunch box on the floor without tripping over it on my way out. 

86 (or any TA IH) is fine if you leave it in one gear till lunch time and go disc ground if you have flat ground consistent enough. A good shifting 86 is still no comparison to a powershift. Even God himself couldn't shift one as smooth or as quick as a powershift and that leads to measurable lost productivity in many applications.  Road running you can do your best and match rpms etc but under load with no momentum that doesn't work.    "More power" is far from the answer needed. 

That said I wouldn't trade our turbo 806 for the neighbors turbo 4020 I ran...that thing felt like a dog. Never had a non turbo gear drive IH to compare it too growing up though, but would bet my lunch it wouldn't take a special 8 to beat it.

[td9inidaho]

I'm impressed that Massey hasn't been beat on more than they have been. Like others have said, they all have had their short comings. And to this day, I will say getting in and out of the Massey is soooo much easier and comfortable than my 14. On the flip side, I love that 14 for what it is, like my kids. Over look it's short comings. And yes I agree, hooking up 3 point or draw bars is quite a feat. My Massey has unloaded plenty of hay. A ton at a time 😁

[dale560]

I am lucky or cursed enough to have run almost all the tractors people talk on here. Never did much field work with a Massey or Allis but have worked on them all. We had a 4020 and a 806 standard turbo growing up. They both had their sweet spots for jobs they performed. The 806 turbo was loud , smelly workhorse. We ran the snot out of it everyday. The 4020 was the sleek pony, mowing, raking ,rowcrop cultivating was its best jobs. I cultivated more sunflowers with both those tractors in 10 years than most people. We were doing about 1000 to 2000 acres of row crop a year when I started on them. The powershift 4020 on a 8 row cultivator was king. The 806 had add on three point but 66 series cab and air. I always had to run the 806 because no one else would. We ran a 1586 with the 2 8630 jds for years. The 1586 was quiet and nice to run for a 13 year old kid. The 8630s we ran later and I liked those tractors, quiet good air conditioning and comfortable. We replaced those with versatile tractors the versatile was like the ih tractor more brute strength when required. We had a 4430, 4630 jd a 7130 magnum, 706,806,  966 ,1066 ,1566,1086 ,1486, 1586 ihc. The 4430 baled lots of bales. The clutch was a lot better than the 66s. The 4630, 1566 were interchangeable on implements. The 4630 had the edge on weight and believe it or not power. Dads 1566 was low hours ran good but no superstar hot rod. The 1586 back years before had a little more power but not tons more. We ran 856 ,560 s jd 3020 gas, super ms , Jd As , 50 and 60s they all had their good spots and bad things. Ran Oliver and whites a bit loved them all. Now as for pulling a baler or hay equipment the 4430 when good hands down the best. The the 86s with dry clutch just aren’t the same. But pulling the mixer wagon,bale shredder hay mover the Ihc were the best. 

[midnightman]

4 minutes ago, td9inidaho said:

I'm impressed that Massey hasn't been beat on more than they have been. Like others have said, they all have had their short comings. And to this day, I will say getting in and out of the Massey is soooo much easier and comfortable than my 14. On the flip side, I love that 14 for what it is, like my kids. Over look it's short comings. And yes I agree, hooking up 3 point or draw bars is quite a feat. My Massey has unloaded plenty of hay. A ton at a time 😁

It’s easy to get in because it’s missing the door! 😆

[Dirt_Floor_Poor]

1 hour ago, dale560 said:

I am lucky or cursed enough to have run almost all the tractors people talk on here. Never did much field work with a Massey or Allis but have worked on them all. We had a 4020 and a 806 standard turbo growing up. They both had their sweet spots for jobs they performed. The 806 turbo was loud , smelly workhorse. We ran the snot out of it everyday. The 4020 was the sleek pony, mowing, raking ,rowcrop cultivating was its best jobs. I cultivated more sunflowers with both those tractors in 10 years than most people. We were doing about 1000 to 2000 acres of row crop a year when I started on them. The powershift 4020 on a 8 row cultivator was king. The 806 had add on three point but 66 series cab and air. I always had to run the 806 because no one else would. We ran a 1586 with the 2 8630 jds for years. The 1586 was quiet and nice to run for a 13 year old kid. The 8630s we ran later and I liked those tractors, quiet good air conditioning and comfortable. We replaced those with versatile tractors the versatile was like the ih tractor more brute strength when required. We had a 4430, 4630 jd a 7130 magnum, 706,806,  966 ,1066 ,1566,1086 ,1486, 1586 ihc. The 4430 baled lots of bales. The clutch was a lot better than the 66s. The 4630, 1566 were interchangeable on implements. The 4630 had the edge on weight and believe it or not power. Dads 1566 was low hours ran good but no superstar hot rod. The 1586 back years before had a little more power but not tons more. We ran 856 ,560 s jd 3020 gas, super ms , Jd As , 50 and 60s they all had their good spots and bad things. Ran Oliver and whites a bit loved them all. Now as for pulling a baler or hay equipment the 4430 when good hands down the best. The the 86s with dry clutch just aren’t the same. But pulling the mixer wagon,bale shredder hay mover the Ihc were the best. 

That sounds like a pretty fair description to me. It’s too bad that experience doesn’t count for more on a forum. 

[cedar farm]

As good as the 86 series were in their time frame I feel they hurt CaseIH in the long run. We lost a lot of customers to John Deere in the early 90's as the farm economy turned around. There were a lot of 250-400 acre farms with livestock in our area who had limped along thru the 80's with 66 series. When things got better they started looking to upgrade. Magnums were fairly new and to much money. The 86's were not enough of an upgrade and there were very few IH 50 series in our area. So those guys ended up in 4440's and 4640's. And John Deere sold a lot of those in the late 70's. A couple local popular tractor jockeys were also flooding our area with 40 series. Dragging them from all over the country. Had the IH 50 series came out in 76-77 when they were supposed to and caught the tractor boom of the 70's things could have been different.

What made it worse for us was once those guys put on the green underware they thought John Deere was the best in everything. Over the years they no longer bought White planters, New Holland choppers and balers. And dumbest of all some of those guys went from IH to John Deere tillage.

This was what I saw in my 18 years behind the counter. As the CIH manager it pained me whenever a guy would bring in a box of dusty parts asking if I would give him something for them. I of coarse would ask why they didn't need them. And that's when I would get the bad news.

[856 Custom]

This was a Massey farm back in the 60s with the exception of Grandpa's Super M. All IH in the 70s with the exception of a 185 Allis bought new fall of 1974. When grandpa retired in '78 my uncle ended up with the Allis when he, grandpa and dad were dividing up Grandpa's share of the machinery and dad got full share of the combine, a New Holland 975 at the time, because dad and Grandpa owned that together. Dad was glad the Allis left. Me, not so much. I really liked that tractor, and I have one today again. 1980s roll around we're all red till this 6030 gets bought in 1985. Bought straight out, nothing was traded. Why a 1586 wasn't bought for the same price I don't know, but it wasn't my place to be asking questions. Dad never cared for the 1086 cab layout. We still had the 1086  yet though, THANKFULLY. I enjoyed operating that 6030 as much as I enjoyed hacking frozen silage off the silo wall in the winter with a Axe. 1987 a 1800 some hour '77 Deere 2640 gets bought to replace the 4600 houred '72 glow plug 656 hydro utility. I'm 19 years old and this POS Deere gets bought to replace a RED tractor?! Man I was pissed! But you daresent say anything, things would get heated. My uncle had a '72 David Brown 990 with a loader I drove for many years picking up round bales with when we baled hay. IMO that wasn't any poorer of a tractor, than what IH made comparable at the time. I always enjoyed running it and the thing practically ran on air, very fuel efficient. They all have their good and their bad features.

[Jacka]

6 hours ago, cedar farm said:

As good as the 86 series were in their time frame I feel they hurt CaseIH in the long run. We lost a lot of customers to John Deere in the early 90's as the farm economy turned around. There were a lot of 250-400 acre farms with livestock in our area who had limped along thru the 80's with 66 series. When things got better they started looking to upgrade. Magnums were fairly new and to much money. The 86's were not enough of an upgrade and there were very few IH 50 series in our area. So those guys ended up in 4440's and 4640's. And John Deere sold a lot of those in the late 70's. A couple local popular tractor jockeys were also flooding our area with 40 series. Dragging them from all over the country. Had the IH 50 series came out in 76-77 when they were supposed to and caught the tractor boom of the 70's things could have been different.

What made it worse for us was once those guys put on the green underware they thought John Deere was the best in everything. Over the years they no longer bought White planters, New Holland choppers and balers. And dumbest of all some of those guys went from IH to John Deere tillage.

This was what I saw in my 18 years behind the counter. As the CIH manager it pained me whenever a guy would bring in a box of dusty parts asking if I would give him something for them. I of coarse would ask why they didn't need them. And that's when I would get the bad news.

Yes,I definitely don't have your inside take on IH/CIH but on 50 series coming out early I agree.I do remember the mystic that IH surrounded it with in advertising before they came out though. I thought that was clever and forward thinking of IH.I believe too the styling,cab design,air flow design would have been a real jump from the 66 series that it definitely would have made a mark.IH was first I believe in row crop non articulated to have that air flow and engine covered design.Copy cat JD jumped all over the idea,just like when they stubbornly went from 2cyl to multiple cyl.

[B.B.]

It’s often overlooked at JDs marketing.   They produce/license baby toys and apparel and get people hooked early on green paint.   
 

 

Ask any city person and they can name JD but probably not any other manufacturer.   
 

Farm kid grows up with green toys and when he takes over what color equipment do you think he wants?   

It’s not the entire story here but it’s often overlooked and like it or not plays into things. 

[Dirt_Floor_Poor]

17 minutes ago, B.B. said:

It’s often overlooked at JDs marketing.   They produce/license baby toys and apparel and get people hooked early on green paint.   
 

 

Ask any city person and they can name JD but probably not any other manufacturer.   
 

Farm kid grows up with green toys and when he takes over what color equipment do you think he wants?   

It’s not the entire story here but it’s often overlooked and like it or not plays into things. 

That’s the case now for sure, but at one time IH was well ahead of John Deere. I think that John Deere’s marketing success is a symptom of their business success, not the cause of it. John Deere began to move into first place in the Ag market in the late 50’s and early 60’s. There are many reasons Deere is in the number one spot now, but I think the least of them is their licensing agreements. John Deere has a huge presence in suburban and urban areas because of their lawn and garden products as well as construction equipment. It’s a product that many people who are several generations removed from the farm may still own. Case IH does not have their name on anything but red tractors, and a lot of people never see a tractor of any color. I bet 99% of the people who would go into a Cub Cadet dealer in a city have no idea of the heritage of the company because they make no effort whatsoever to tell people. What is left of the IH payline also omits its heritage and also has basically no market share. 

[766 Man]

10 hours ago, cedar farm said:

As good as the 86 series were in their time frame I feel they hurt CaseIH in the long run. We lost a lot of customers to John Deere in the early 90's as the farm economy turned around. There were a lot of 250-400 acre farms with livestock in our area who had limped along thru the 80's with 66 series. When things got better they started looking to upgrade. Magnums were fairly new and to much money. The 86's were not enough of an upgrade and there were very few IH 50 series in our area. So those guys ended up in 4440's and 4640's. And John Deere sold a lot of those in the late 70's. A couple local popular tractor jockeys were also flooding our area with 40 series. Dragging them from all over the country. Had the IH 50 series came out in 76-77 when they were supposed to and caught the tractor boom of the 70's things could have been different.

What made it worse for us was once those guys put on the green underware they thought John Deere was the best in everything. Over the years they no longer bought White planters, New Holland choppers and balers. And dumbest of all some of those guys went from IH to John Deere tillage.

This was what I saw in my 18 years behind the counter. As the CIH manager it pained me whenever a guy would bring in a box of dusty parts asking if I would give him something for them. I of coarse would ask why they didn't need them. And that's when I would get the bad news.

  I remember an Implement & Tractor article most likely written before the 1979 strike.  In the coveted 100 plus HP tractor sales category IH ran at around 33 percent of the market versus JD's 40 percent.  Case had into the mid-teens.  So the rest had to exist off of crumbs.  With that distribution in the market I don't know how you can say the 86 series really cost IH.  JD had a first rate financial division (I've used it so I know) so that explains how JD would take the top position in terms of sales.  

  The 1979 strike hurt more than the product offerings when IH had equipment to sell.  I can remember the talk at the local dealership.  Something was often going out the door to another dealership with very little coming back in.  Prolonged strikes do not help the image of the company having them.  

  Farmers bought from JD because they could finance in the very bad 1980's and early 1990's when nobody could or would (Farm Credit).  Also, JD shored up a lot of its products in the tillage and forage lines.  The gap had been closed in terms of features and performance.  

[Big Bud guy]

4 hours ago, Jacka said:

Yes,I definitely don't have your inside take on IH/CIH but on 50 series coming out early I agree.I do remember the mystic that IH surrounded it with in advertising before they came out though. I thought that was clever and forward thinking of IH.I believe too the styling,cab design,air flow design would have been a real jump from the 66 series that it definitely would have made a mark.IH was first I believe in row crop non articulated to have that air flow and engine covered design.Copy cat JD jumped all over the idea,just like when they stubbornly went from 2cyl to multiple cyl.

You talking about the FAF?  Honest question what JD had that?  Only thing I can think of was the 00 series combines.  And those didn’t work that good.   I think what IH had would have worked better if they used a hydraulic driven fan like our JD instead of running a shaft through the radiator.

[766 Man]

38 minutes ago, B.B. said:

It’s often overlooked at JDs marketing.   They produce/license baby toys and apparel and get people hooked early on green paint.   
 

 

Ask any city person and they can name JD but probably not any other manufacturer.   
 

Farm kid grows up with green toys and when he takes over what color equipment do you think he wants?   

It’s not the entire story here but it’s often overlooked and like it or not plays into things. 

  I recall IH toys made by Ertl at the local IH dealership when I was a kid during the 1970's.  My dad bought me quite a number of them as I am sure many farmers across the US bought them for their kids.  

[Big Bud guy]

6 minutes ago, 766 Man said:

 

  Farmers bought from JD because they could finance in the very bad 1980's and early 1990's when nobody could or would (Farm Credit).  Also, JD shored up a lot of its products in the tillage and forage lines.  The gap had been closed in terms of features and performance.  

That JD financing got us into a new 4640 in 1980.  I can’t remember what they allowed us on the MF 1150 but total cost was around $48,000.  First time we financed a piece of equipment.  And I agree on the implements.  From the mid 70s into the 80s their hay line improved dramatically not to mention their drills.

[766 Man]

7 minutes ago, Big Bud guy said:

That JD financing got us into a new 4640 in 1980.  I can’t remember what they allowed us on the MF 1150 but total cost was around $48,000.  First time we financed a piece of equipment.  And I agree on the implements.  From the mid 70s into the 80s their hay line improved dramatically not to mention their drills.

  JD

  1971 : 224 replaced by 336.  An improvement.

  1972 : 483 replaced by 1209.  Took a couple of years to shake the bugs but an improvement.

  1973 : B series drills replaced by 8000 series.  Not so much an advancement in tech but more capacity per foot across.

  1974 : 12XX planters plus whatever 49X planters that remained replaced by 7000 Max Em.  Vast improvement.  

  1975 : CC series field cultivators replaced by 1000 series field cultivators.  Improvement.

  1978 : 35 chopper replaced by 3940 chopper.  Improvement.

  1979 : 216 forage wagon replaced by 716 wagon.  Improvement plus much more capacity.

 

  IH

  1970 : 510 drill replaces 10 drill.  Like JD mostly gain in box capacity.

  1973 : 100 series spreaders replaced by 500 series spreaders.  Lifetime warranty on metal sides.  Small improvement.

  1976 : 555 chopper replaced by 720 chopper.  Big improvement.

  1977 : 15 series combines replaced by Axial Flow.  Big improvement but missed golden age of sales from 1970 until then.

  1979 : 2 plus 2 tractors fill a niche. 990 mower-cond. replaced by 1190.

  1981 : 86 series tractors replaced by 88 series.  Centerline driven MFWD an improvement.  

            400 & 56 series planters replaced by 800 series.  Big improvement.  

 

  JD did a little more earlier on in the 1970's to take advantage of a marketing golden age which coincided with a boom export market among other factors.  The Axial Flow coming out around 1974/75 would have been a huge help to IH's bottom line.

[B.B.]

3 hours ago, 766 Man said:

  I recall IH toys made by Ertl at the local IH dealership when I was a kid during the 1970's.  My dad bought me quite a number of them as I am sure many farmers across the US bought them for their kids.  

Yes at the dealers.   John Deere items are sold everywhere nowadays and have been for some time. 
 

it’s much harder to find blue or red unless you go to a specific store.  
 

 

Walmart has JD items but I don’t think I’ve ever seen case IH or New Holland there for instance. 
 

 

 

[766 Man]

15 minutes ago, B.B. said:

Yes at the dealers.   John Deere items are sold everywhere nowadays and have been for some time. 
 

it’s much harder to find blue or red unless you go to a specific store.  
 

 

Walmart has JD items but I don’t think I’ve ever seen case IH or New Holland there for instance. 
 

 

 

  JD lavished on its L & G, outdoor, and compact tractor during the 1970's which paid off down the road in terms of presence to consumers.  Also, JD financing was very easy for consumers to get on their purchases.  IH had CC, the 184 & 284 plus the 140 but it really was not the same thing as having a full line in sub compacts where JD had the 650, 750, 850, 950, 1050, 1250, 1450, and 1650 Yanmar built tractors and an extensive line of attachments plus implements to go with them.  JD was already going to consumer themed locations by 1980 to give better placements relative to the suburbs.  If you wanted a CC you had to go to an IH ag dealership which might be an hour away.

[FarmerFixEmUp]

34 minutes ago, B.B. said:

Yes at the dealers.   John Deere items are sold everywhere nowadays and have been for some time. 
 

it’s much harder to find blue or red unless you go to a specific store.  
 

 

Walmart has JD items but I don’t think I’ve ever seen case IH or New Holland there for instance. 
 

 

 

No Red toys at Wal Mart?    Hmmm. 

 

[B.B.]

9 minutes ago, 766 Man said:

  JD lavished on its L & G, outdoor, and compact tractor during the 1970's which paid off down the road in terms of presence to consumers.  Also, JD financing was very easy for consumers to get on their purchases.  IH had CC, the 184 & 284 plus the 140 but it really was not the same thing as having a full line in sub compacts where JD had the 650, 750, 850, 950, 1050, 1250, 1450, and 1650 Yanmar built tractors and an extensive line of attachments plus implements to go with them.  JD was already going to consumer themed locations by 1980 to give better placements relative to the suburbs.  If you wanted a CC you had to go to an IH ag dealership which might be an hour away.

 

I've been told (no numbers to back it up) that the sales of small utility loader tractors 50hp and under make up the majority of sales for a dealership this day to folks that have a few acres and just "need" a tractor.   

 

The little Yanmar built JD's are really well built tractors.  I had an 855 for a few years we used and it really did a great job for what it was without any major repairs. 

 

[B.B.]

5 hours ago, Dirt_Floor_Poor said:

That’s the case now for sure, but at one time IH was well ahead of John Deere. I think that John Deere’s marketing success is a symptom of their business success, not the cause of it. John Deere began to move into first place in the Ag market in the late 50’s and early 60’s. There are many reasons Deere is in the number one spot now, but I think the least of them is their licensing agreements. John Deere has a huge presence in suburban and urban areas because of their lawn and garden products as well as construction equipment. It’s a product that many people who are several generations removed from the farm may still own. Case IH does not have their name on anything but red tractors, and a lot of people never see a tractor of any color. I bet 99% of the people who would go into a Cub Cadet dealer in a city have no idea of the heritage of the company because they make no effort whatsoever to tell people. What is left of the IH payline also omits its heritage and also has basically no market share. 

I think your 100% correct in that only older generation farmers who remember IH, or Cub Cadet enthusiasts understand that Cub Cadet was an IH product line before it was sold off.  

 

A lot of the folks I work with know at the very minimum that I like tractors, but I've heard it multiple times for me to go get my "John Deere" instead of saying tractor because to them a tractor is a John Deere and a John Deere is a tractor.   Kind of like a "crescent" wrench is every adjustable wrench they see, or a "bobcat" is any skid steer loader.    These are all town living folks, because the rural folks know I like red tractors!