86 series poor reputation?

[iowaboy1965]

12 minutes ago, TractormanMike.mb said:

Question about JD 8 speed powershifts. Were the lower hp tractors as harsh with the shifting due to the engine getting pulled down from the shift? Its been years since I've driven an 8 speed. There were two I remember distinctly, A 4230 and a 4430. The 4230 really didn't shift that hard, especially if you shifted into the higher gears at a lower throttle and then throttled up. The 4430 on the other hand was really crisp, like don't hold onto the shifter knob because the jolt would cause you to push it into another gear.

Always thought it was the ratio jump was wide enough between 7 and 8 to cause the jerking?

[Super A_sepa]

9 minutes ago, TractormanMike.mb said:

Question about JD 8 speed powershifts. Were the lower hp tractors as harsh with the shifting due to the engine getting pulled down from the shift? Its been years since I've driven an 8 speed. There were two I remember distinctly, A 4230 and a 4430. The 4230 really didn't shift that hard, especially if you shifted into the higher gears at a lower throttle and then throttled up. The 4430 on the other hand was really crisp, like don't hold onto the shifter knob because the jolt would cause you to push it into another gear.

The two I've spent the most time on did act different.  The 44 was harsh but nothing like the 4840 was.  I'm not sure how much of that was hp (although the 48 seemed pretty hot) or how much was how the valve was set. I think they could be set for crispness somewhat, smaller tractors set lighter worked with lighter loads but bigger tractors set crisper to not slip when shifted.

Know of one local Amish guy that rented an 8 speed tractor, grabbed the wrong lever slowing down on the road. Went from 8 to 1 and then the resulting stop sent his arm from 1 back to 8...tractor lived to tell about it. I feel a little pain everything I think about it though. 

[Big Bud guy]

4 minutes ago, iowaboy1965 said:

That's funny, my father-in-law talks about running a nearly new 1066 hydro pulling a stalk chopper and a disc at the same time at the dairy farm he worked for. You COULD do heavy tillage with a hydro if you had the appropriate size equipment I believe. What you couldn't do with a hydro was keep adding weight and turning up the smoke screw and putting bigger and bigger implements behinds them. Eventually the system hyd dump limit would be reached and there you set.

Not a powershift hater but they were not perfect either.  And as you stated they were known to gobble up power as well so some old deered guys preferred the synchro over the ps. What did they do to take care of that later?

Well if you hook a 4 bottom plow to a 1066 it could do heavy tillage.  Thats not exactly what I meant.  It seems I read somewhere a hydro 1066 put at the same hp as the next size down from it like a 966 gear drive.  And unless I'm mistaken, IH relabeled the 1066 hydro because farmers were finding out they couldn't keep up with a gear drive.  I've only been around one hydro and its my cousins 1066.  Back when they ran a feed lot they used it for forage chopping and putting up hay which it excelled at. One point they tried it on a disk and that didn't last long.  Far as the JD PS, I assume JD adjusted the pump or fuel delivery.  I know when they side console 4020s came out, I think the hp was upped slightly.  

[dale560]

22 minutes ago, TractormanMike.mb said:

Question about JD 8 speed powershifts. Were the lower hp tractors as harsh with the shifting due to the engine getting pulled down from the shift? Its been years since I've driven an 8 speed. There were two I remember distinctly, A 4230 and a 4430. The 4230 really didn't shift that hard, especially if you shifted into the higher gears at a lower throttle and then throttled up. The 4430 on the other hand was really crisp, like don't hold onto the shifter knob because the jolt would cause you to push it into another gear.

On the 20 series there are adjustments to the shift quality. If you went through proper procedure they were not bad shifting. We never used our 4020 much for heavy work it was the everyday chore tractor for everything. 

[Farming Enthusiast]

On 2/19/2022 at 2:04 PM, Big Bud guy said:

I'm getting my facts from the Nebraska tests.  Where are you getting yours????  There is a reason IH put the 560 on the market.

That's funny because I was getting my numbers from Nebraska as well. I was comparing gas to gas since that would've been the most common fuel at that time. And on both drawbar and pto they were a couple hp apart which I'm my book doesn't put the 720 on a whole other level like you're making it sound. The 450 actually beat it pretty handily in the max pull but had more weight on it so that's not apples to apples. But again I would say they're in  the same league

[jimw]

 Everyone has different needs I guess. Dad would chop corn with the 806 and she would just walk along in gear. Myself I ran a 862 Massey pull type with a 100 hydro, nice on corners but switched to the 1586. Just put it in gear and go. Lots of gears are kinda like a smart phone 📞, don’t really miss them till u have them. 

[Big Bud guy]

22 minutes ago, Farmer in training said:

That's funny because I was getting my numbers from Nebraska as well. I was comparing gas to gas since that would've been the most common fuel at that time. gain I would say they're in  the same league

Hate to bust your bubble but diesel 720s made up 63% of the sales.  The percentage was even higher for the 730s.  Diesels were out selling the gassers.  Plus if you subtract the LPG fueled tractors the percentage of the gas tractors are even lower.  So that is why I used the diesel numbers.  

[jimw]

852 I guess, been awhile

[Farming Enthusiast]

18 minutes ago, Big Bud guy said:

Hate to bust your bubble but diesel 720s made up 63% of the sales.  The percentage was even higher for the 730s.  Diesels were out selling the gassers.  Plus if you subtract the LPG fueled tractors the percentage of the gas tractors are even lower.  So that is why I used the diesel numbers.  

Oh I'm pretty sure you used diesel because that's what makes your argument sound the best. You would t happen to know which was the highest selling fuel type for the 450 would you? I highly doubt it was diesel or LP. And if that's the case they're still pretty darn close

[Jacka]

7 hours ago, Big Bud guy said:

 

Problem with the hydro is you couldn't do heavy tillage.  Problem with TA/syncro is you are stuck in 1 or 2 gears.  Powershift was a comprise between the two.  After the 4020 we had a 2950 and then a 3255 both with loaders too.  Loaded and unloaded thousands of round bales with both tractors and never once once once starved the hydraulics.  In fact the only place I have heard that problem is right here on Redpower which isn't surprising.  I believe the only guy in this thread who owns both red and green who gave an unbiased opinion says the hydraulics are better on the JD.  Go back and read it.  In case you missed it the first time I own a 1256 and 5010 and 20.  The JD's despite being heavier handle just as good if not better then the 1256.  And they don't have lever for each gear like the IH does and don't have the throttle sticking out away from you.  The 5020 is more convenient to drive.  

There is no problem using a IH hydro for tillage.I don't know what you consider heavy tillage .I have plowed with all of mine.My 1026 was hooked to a 720 5/18 plow.When I was a kid a large neighboring farmer(or large for the time) plowed with three tractors at a time in same fields together. 856,1026 and Hydro 100.All pulled IH710 6/16 autos day in and out.Common sense is needed more in Hydros than other tractors but they will do the job.

[Jacka]

5 hours ago, jimw said:

852 I guess, been awhile

Like the truck really cool.It reminds me of a 1959 or 60 Ford Big Job model  I had .The trucks then had character. 

[TractormanMike.mb]

8 hours ago, dale560 said:

On the 20 series there are adjustments to the shift quality. If you went through proper procedure they were not bad shifting. We never used our 4020 much for heavy work it was the everyday chore tractor for everything. 

Kind of like taking the time to do the maintenance and make the adjustments to the clutch and shifting on an IH?

[bitty]

The one reason most of the JD guys hate the 8 speed is the extra fuel consumption. If it was an IH engine in front maybe it wouldn't have been as bad? I liked it for the feed mixer as it doesn't have a conventional clutch to wear out 

[Super A_sepa]

7 hours ago, Big Bud guy said:

Hate to bust your bubble but diesel 720s made up 63% of the sales.  The percentage was even higher for the 730s.  Diesels were out selling the gassers.  Plus if you subtract the LPG fueled tractors the percentage of the gas tractors are even lower.  So that is why I used the diesel numbers.  

If I remember right the 730 D was the most furl efficient tractor tested at Nebraska for a long time, 20 or 30 years maybe.

Safe to say that a gas 450, even if it was doing the same work, was no where near second place.

 

If I had more money than I knew what to do with I'd find a 730 D but I'm not paying 14k for one like I saw sold the other day.

[766 Man]

11 hours ago, iowaboy1965 said:

That's funny, my father-in-law talks about running a nearly new 1066 hydro pulling a stalk chopper and a disc at the same time at the dairy farm he worked for. You COULD do heavy tillage with a hydro if you had the appropriate size equipment I believe. What you couldn't do with a hydro was keep adding weight and turning up the smoke screw and putting bigger and bigger implements behinds them. Eventually the system hyd dump limit would be reached and there you set.

Not a powershift hater but they were not perfect either.  And as you stated they were known to gobble up power as well so some old deered guys preferred the synchro over the ps. What did they do to take care of that later?

  Lots of IH Hydro's sold around here for various purposes.  Typical jobs for them were transplanting vegetables, harvesting vegetables, hay harvest, and barnyard work.  What you very seldom saw was an IH Hydro out lugging a tillage tool that would make its gear drive brother groan.  This would be dozens of farmers coming to the same conclusion in that there are disadvantages in maxing out an IH Hydro on the drawbar.

[Farming Enthusiast]

2 hours ago, Super A_sepa said:

If I remember right the 730 D was the most furl efficient tractor tested at Nebraska for a long time, 20 or 30 years maybe.

Safe to say that a gas 450, even if it was doing the same work, was no where near second place.

 

If I had more money than I knew what to do with I'd find a 730 D but I'm not paying 14k for one like I saw sold the other day.

Oh I don't doubt for a second that a 730D gets far better fuel efficiency than a 450 gas. I was talking about pulling power. I was told on here that a 720 would pull a whole bottom more than any other tractor in its class at that time. I was just pointing out that a 450 put up near the same numbers in some areas and even better in others. But you know how JD guys are.

[766 Man]

4 hours ago, Jacka said:

There is no problem using a IH hydro for tillage.I don't know what you consider heavy tillage .I have plowed with all of mine.My 1026 was hooked to a 720 5/18 plow.When I was a kid a large neighboring farmer(or large for the time) plowed with three tractors at a time in same fields together. 856,1026 and Hydro 100.All pulled IH710 6/16 autos day in and out.Common sense is needed more in Hydros than other tractors but they will do the job.

  Soil type matters a great deal in these comparisons.  About 3 miles away as the bird flies on sandy soil a farmer pulled 5 X 16's with a 656 Hydro gas.  About 300 feet east of my house that same 656 would be pulling 3 X 16's and not liking it.  The same farm where the 656 was had a neighbor come in after 656 farmer retired.  4020 side console pulling 6 X 16's fairly comfortably.  That same 4020 would be pulling 4 X 16's at my place.  Power Shift or Hydro both less efficient and more power consumed than their gear drive brothers.  

[Farming Enthusiast]

On 2/19/2022 at 12:31 PM, dale560 said:

The cold starting is somewhat a generic myth. The hydraulic pump takes some power to turn so in colder weather that is dragging a bit. The original early 4430 and 4630 had a excess fuel starting device that needed to be tripped by moving throttle lever back and forth to reset it to give the needed fuel for starting. The later ones 76 and so or around there have hydraulic reset by engine oil.  This is a design flaw sort of but not a huge issue. You can modify the early linkage with a spring and cotter pin so it stays reset. A good jd will start down to around 40 degrees maybe 30 without a whiff of ether. A good international engine will start to around 10 or 20 without ether. The 466 in our truck with the big starter will roll off at zero without ether. I highly doubt 10% of the forum members on here are trying to start their tractors at these temps. The 7.6 jd is a 466 your refer to and a 8.1 is a 497 or someplace around there. As far as the power in jd tractors they are usually what they are rated at. We ran a 4630 and a 1566 on same implements. No noticeable difference in power and only slight fuel usage between the 2.  We had JD and international tractors. Now we just have ih because the price is cheaper . After baling with the 1486 there are pros and cons between the 2 series but the ihc is growing on me. One thing I like about the ihc is more cab side room.

If we wanna say that a tractor models shortcomings are a myth because you need to run it a certain way or keep things adjusted right, then we can say the same about a t/a. My dad and grandad NEVER had to split a tractor because a t/a went out. They replaced the t/a in the 1086 when they put in a new clutch because there was fear of wear since it was believed the t/a wasn't releasing properly in the cable linkage. The 1066 they replaced the t/a when they put a clutch in 10 years ago or so because they had it apart so figured they might as well replace it. All they did was use the t/a when they needed it, and used it as another gear ratio when round baling or chopping. And made sure it was adjusted correctly. 

[dale560]

16 minutes ago, Farmer in training said:

If we wanna say that a tractor models shortcomings are a myth because you need to run it a certain way or keep things adjusted right, then we can say the same about a t/a. My dad and grandad NEVER had to split a tractor because a t/a went out. They replaced the t/a in the 1086 when they put in a new clutch because there was fear of wear since it was believed the t/a wasn't releasing properly in the cable linkage. The 1066 they replaced the t/a when they put a clutch in 10 years ago or so because they had it apart so figured they might as well replace it. All they did was use the t/a when they needed it, and used it as another gear ratio when round baling or chopping. And made sure it was adjusted correctly. 

Over the years I have ran into 3 ihc tractors with original TAs in yet. All of them needed the more updated bottom ratio gear. Plus the staking on the shifter rail screw were factory perfect.  I don’t doubt a well taken care of ta will go a while. But this is where ih screwed up. About $1.50 of more parts in at production time the ta would have been indestructible. Like I have said before I love all types of tractors. Want to have one of each make and model sometime. I have been lucky enough to be immersed in every brand and their off shoots so I don’t fault any one tractor mfg. that being said I would like to have the entire 86 series lineup. We have had or ran the entire 30 series Deere line. Ran most of the the 40 and 50 lineup and worked on them. Besides the ihc tractors. I want to have a white mfwd, allis 8000 series, and a case 94 just to have them.

[Farming Enthusiast]

17 minutes ago, dale560 said:

Over the years I have ran into 3 ihc tractors with original TAs in yet. All of them needed the more updated bottom ratio gear. Plus the staking on the shifter rail screw were factory perfect.  I don’t doubt a well taken care of ta will go a while. But this is where ih screwed up. About $1.50 of more parts in at production time the ta would have been indestructible. Like I have said before I love all types of tractors. Want to have one of each make and model sometime. I have been lucky enough to be immersed in every brand and their off shoots so I don’t fault any one tractor mfg. that being said I would like to have the entire 86 series lineup. We have had or ran the entire 30 series Deere line. Ran most of the the 40 and 50 lineup and worked on them. Besides the ihc tractors. I want to have a white mfwd, allis 8000 series, and a case 94 just to have them.

Yea I don't mind talking to guys who aren't biased in equipment or vehicle brands but it's the guys who act like whatever brand they like doesn't have any flaws and/or everything else is junk that I get irritated. I can tell you that the neighbors across the road were/are die hard JD guys but there was zero envy coming from my family's side of the road. But there are guys that act like everything JD put out there was gold and they weren't any better than anybody else. 

[IHC5488]

On 2/19/2022 at 9:03 PM, B.B. said:

Few more memes I created a while back keep hoping they'll catch on lol 

 

 

The 1586 listed above as King of all tractors is the 1st off the line owned by CNH.....that picture was taken at a show in Wisconsin a few years ago.

[Jacka]

2 hours ago, 766 Man said:

  Soil type matters a great deal in these comparisons.  About 3 miles away as the bird flies on sandy soil a farmer pulled 5 X 16's with a 656 Hydro gas.  About 300 feet east of my house that same 656 would be pulling 3 X 16's and not liking it.  The same farm where the 656 was had a neighbor come in after 656 farmer retired.  4020 side console pulling 6 X 16's fairly comfortably.  That same 4020 would be pulling 4 X 16's at my place.  Power Shift or Hydro both less efficient and more power consumed than their gear drive brothers.  

I agree soil types make a big difference grew up in hard clay,some good dirt, but all rocky.No sandy loamy type Now own a farm with light shaley limestone to loam to heavy clay. But the hydros pulling when I was a kid plowing the neighbors farm it was hard soil.Some of it was pasture they plowed after they rented. 100 acres in one field and 45 of old pasture they plowed. After they quit farming we rented the farm a couple of years and boy was that ground tight.No easy pulling there.

[766 Man]

  Since this thread is about 86 series tractors I will relate the following.  One time I had to pick up a part (around 1980) at a WNY dealer since the local dealer did not have it and we needed that part ASAP.  This dealer just north of Batavia, NY had at least 60 86 series tractors lined up along Rte 98.  Quick count indicated at least 2 dozen 1086 tractors.  As a teen who had not too long prior got his driver's license seeing that many new tractors in a row was impressive.  Maybe not so much for somebody who lived in the Midwest at that time.

[bitty]

13 minutes ago, 766 Man said:

  Since this thread is about 86 series tractors I will relate the following.  One time I had to pick up a part (around 1980) at a WNY dealer since the local dealer did not have it and we needed that part ASAP.  This dealer just north of Batavia, NY had at least 60 86 series tractors lined up along Rte 98.  Quick count indicated at least 2 dozen 1086 tractors.  As a teen who had not too long prior got his driver's license seeing that many new tractors in a row was impressive.  Maybe not so much for somebody who lived in the Midwest at that time.

Wow , that's a bunch of trades and new tractors

[766 Man]

1 minute ago, bitty said:

Wow , that's a bunch of trades and new tractors

  Every last one along the highway was new.  Of course there had to be trades.  Most likely the back rows away from 98.  Today it is a Monroe Tractor location.  A lot of high value agriculture going on in that area.