Jump to content

Boxcar Magnum Engine Rebuild


TB5288
 Share

Recommended Posts

I'm looking for opinions on an engine rebuild. This is a little long so please hear me out. I just recently rebuilt to engine on my new to me 8950. It had just over 10k hours. I rebuilt it because I knew no history on the tractor and everything seemed original, I didn't want it going down when needed. I ran it on the Dyno today and there are a few things that concern me. First let me say the engine kit was Federal Mogul from Tractor Restoration in Pennsylvania, injection pump had been rebuilt 100 hours ago(plungers and barrels replaced), reman injectors from Bosch, new camshaft, reman head, new turbo(316468 BW). It had wastegate turbo, I did not put that back on. Engine runs fine. When I started running on Dyno the head gasket started seeping coolant along the side, my stomach dropped! I kept running it and it quit leaking! I'm sure heat had something to do with it stopping but now what do I do? Run it and see what happens? I've never seen a leak fix itself, no coolant getting in oil. Another concern, sure seems like it has a lot of blow by, how long does it take to seat the rings on these engines? I'm not real familiar with this Cummins. The pressure is steady, no puff like any one cylinder. And the last thing, while running full load the EGT was at the very top of the green. Is this normal? Outside temp was 30 farenheit, Makes me think if it was warm outside it would hit the red. Turbo boost was 26-27 psi, which I would say is good. Full load HP was 245 on Dyno, all stock settings in pump. I was hoping it would pull a little more, but that's what it is. I had it on Dyno before rebuild, HP was the same. So I didn't gain anything at this point. Thanks for reading this and I'd appreciate any opinions. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 hours ago, TB5288 said:

When I started running on Dyno the head gasket started seeping coolant along the side

Which side?

New head bolts?

What torque method did you torque head by? 

When pump was rebuilt, I would assume timing was set to stock settings?

What coolant are you using?

I have way more questions than answers at this point.....sorry.

Shop notes regarding head torque... I like to get cylinder heads to maximum torque then get cooling system closed up and water in them. Plug up block heater and let it stabilize. Come back for last thing of the day and take it to final torque again, then do the 90* on all bolts. It always amazes me what you can gain.  

CYLINDER HEAD BOLT TORQUE PRIOR TO TTY (TORQUE TO YIELD) BOLTS NOTE THESE BOLTS ARE INDENTIFIED BY THE MARKINGS (12.9KKK) ON THE HEAD

* 1ST STEP 27 FT LBS

* 2ND STEP 110 FT LBS

* 3RD STEP 148 FT LBS

 

LATE ENGINES WITH TTY HEAD BOLTS IDENTIFIED BY THE (T+90<) MARKING ON THE HEAD GET TORQUED IN THE FOLLOWING STEPS

IF USING A NEW BLOCK OR NEW BOLTS USE THE FOLLOWING STEPS

* 1ST STEP ALL BOLTS 70 FT LBS

* 2ND STEP REPEAT STEP 1

* 3RD STEP TORQUE 2 CENTER ROWS (14 BOLTS) TO 106 FT LBS

* 4TH STEP REPEAT STEP 3

* 5TH STEP 6 SHORT BOLTS ON EXHAUST SIDE ONLY 77 FT LBS

* 6TH STEP REPEAT STEP 5

* 7TH STEP 6 SHORT BOLTS ON INTAKE SIDE ONLY 70 FT LBS

* 8TH STEP TURN ALL BOLTS 90 DEGREES

IF USING USED BLOCK AND USED BOLTS USE THE FOLLOWING STEPS

*1ST STEP ALL BOLTS 52 FT LBS

*2ND STEP TORQUE 2 CENTER ROWS (14 BOLTS) TO 105 FT LBS

*3RD STEP RETORQUE 2 OUTER ROWS (12 BOLTS) TO 52 FT LBS

*4TH STEP RETORQUE 2 CENTER ROWS (14 BOLTS) TO 105 FT LBS

*5TH STEP TURN ALL BOLTS 90 DEGREES (AFTER FINAL DEGREE TORQUE IS COMPLETE, TORQUE ROCKER ARM BOLTS TO 41 FT LBS)

Edited by CIHTECH
Add missed info
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Even a worn out turbo diesel will develop nearly all it's required hp, so not surprised at the same hp output as before the oh, since the pump was done before the oh. You really didn't do anything to increase the hp. Are you running break in oil in it? I feel today's oils are too good to get the small amount of wear needed to seat the rings. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 minutes ago, CIHTECH said:

Which side?

New head bolts?

What torque method did you torque head by? 

When pump was rebuilt, I would assume timing was set to stock settings?

What coolant are you using?

I have way more questions than answers at this point.....sorry.

Shop notes regarding head torque... I like to get cylinder heads to maximum torque then get cooling system closed up and water in them. Plug up block heater and let it stabilize. Come back for last thing of the day and take it to final torque again, then do the 90* on all bolts. It always amazes me what you can gain.  

CYLINDER HEAD BOLT TORQUE PRIOR TO TTY (TORQUE TO YIELD) BOLTS NOTE THESE BOLTS ARE INDENTIFIED BY THE MARKINGS (12.9KKK) ON THE HEAD

* 1ST STEP 27 FT LBS

* 2ND STEP 110 FT LBS

* 3RD STEP 148 FT LBS

 

LATE ENGINES WITH TTY HEAD BOLTS IDENTIFIED BY THE (T+90<) MARKING ON THE HEAD GET TORQUED IN THE FOLLOWING STEPS

IF USING A NEW BLOCK OR NEW BOLTS USE THE FOLLOWING STEPS

* 1ST STEP ALL BOLTS 70 FT LBS

* 2ND STEP REPEAT STEP 1

* 3RD STEP TORQUE 2 CENTER ROWS (14 BOLTS) TO 106 FT LBS

* 4TH STEP REPEAT STEP 3

* 5TH STEP 6 SHORT BOLTS ON EXHAUST SIDE ONLY 77 FT LBS

* 6TH STEP REPEAT STEP 5

* 7TH STEP 6 SHORT BOLTS ON INTAKE SIDE ONLY 70 FT LBS

* 8TH STEP TURN ALL BOLTS 90 DEGREES

IF USING USED BLOCK AND USED BOLTS USE THE FOLLOWING STEPS

*1ST STEP ALL BOLTS 52 FT LBS

*2ND STEP TORQUE 2 CENTER ROWS (14 BOLTS) TO 105 FT LBS

*3RD STEP RETORQUE 2 OUTER ROWS (12 BOLTS) TO 52 FT LBS

*4TH STEP RETORQUE 2 CENTER ROWS (14 BOLTS) TO 105 FT LBS

*5TH STEP TURN ALL BOLTS 90 DEGREES (AFTER FINAL DEGREE

I first noticed the leak on the exhaust side and then noticed a very small leak on the pump side. Timing is stock. I did Not replace the head bolts, I used torque to yield method as outlined in C/IH manual although it was not as elaborate as what you show. Anti-Freeze is Prestone Command Heavy Duty(green).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 minutes ago, Injpumped said:

Even a worn out turbo diesel will develop nearly all it's required hp, so not surprised at the same hp output as before the oh, since the pump was done before the oh. You really didn't do anything to increase the hp. Are you running break in oil in it? I feel today's oils are too good to get the small amount of wear needed to seat the rings. 

I was not insinuating I should have seen a HP increase with the overhaul, I agree with what you're saying. I just wanted to mention that I did Dyno results before overhaul. I am Not using break in oil. Rotella 15-40.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, TB5288 said:

I was not insinuating I should have seen a HP increase with the overhaul, I agree with what you're saying. I just wanted to mention that I did Dyno results before overhaul. I am Not using break in oil. Rotella 15-40.

I was hoping I would possibly see a HP increase with the non waste-gate turbo, but I wasn't sure I would.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If you have an IT manual for magnums throw it away. Head torques were wrong at one time(1990's). Unless they have revised them by now but I doubt it.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

53 minutes ago, cedar farm said:

If you have an IT manual for magnums throw it away. Head torques were wrong at one time(1990's). Unless they have revised them by now but I doubt it.

Was not using IT manual. Cummins manual included with CIH 8900 Series book.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, TB5288 said:

I'm looking for opinions on an engine rebuild. This is a little long so please hear me out. I just recently rebuilt to engine on my new to me 8950. It had just over 10k hours. I rebuilt it because I knew no history on the tractor and everything seemed original, I didn't want it going down when needed. I ran it on the Dyno today and there are a few things that concern me. First let me say the engine kit was Federal Mogul from Tractor Restoration in Pennsylvania, injection pump had been rebuilt 100 hours ago(plungers and barrels replaced), reman injectors from Bosch, new camshaft, reman head, new turbo(316468 BW). It had wastegate turbo, I did not put that back on. Engine runs fine. When I started running on Dyno the head gasket started seeping coolant along the side, my stomach dropped! I kept running it and it quit leaking! I'm sure heat had something to do with it stopping but now what do I do? Run it and see what happens? I've never seen a leak fix itself, no coolant getting in oil. Another concern, sure seems like it has a lot of blow by, how long does it take to seat the rings on these engines? I'm not real familiar with this Cummins. The pressure is steady, no puff like any one cylinder. And the last thing, while running full load the EGT was at the very top of the green. Is this normal? Outside temp was 30 farenheit, Makes me think if it was warm outside it would hit the red. Turbo boost was 26-27 psi, which I would say is good. Full load HP was 245 on Dyno, all stock settings in pump. I was hoping it would pull a little more, but that's what it is. I had it on Dyno before rebuild, HP was the same. So I didn't gain anything at this point. Thanks for reading this and I'd appreciate any opinions. 

   We inframed an engine in a 7700 IHC truck. It is a Cummings ISM ,10.8 L , made in 2005. It was dripping coolant from the right rear of the head gasket a week or so later. Not much on stop leak but can probably replace the head gasket on your 8.3 L three times to doing this one once. Put Bars Leak in it, a pint? , and put it back to work. A year later it is still good.                                                                                                                                                                                                   Copper Coat was used during assembly.                                                                                                                                                                                                         The comments on changes in oil and the need for break in oil are interesting. We always used regular oil. I seem to be seeing more rebuilt engines having higher blow by than desired.                                                                                                                                                                                                                               I would run it and not let it sit and idle. Just my experience and opinion. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, CIHTECH said:

Which side?

New head bolts?

What torque method did you torque head by? 

When pump was rebuilt, I would assume timing was set to stock settings?

What coolant are you using?

I have way more questions than answers at this point.....sorry.

Shop notes regarding head torque... I like to get cylinder heads to maximum torque then get cooling system closed up and water in them. Plug up block heater and let it stabilize. Come back for last thing of the day and take it to final torque again, then do the 90* on all bolts. It always amazes me what you can gain.  

CYLINDER HEAD BOLT TORQUE PRIOR TO TTY (TORQUE TO YIELD) BOLTS NOTE THESE BOLTS ARE INDENTIFIED BY THE MARKINGS (12.9KKK) ON THE HEAD

* 1ST STEP 27 FT LBS

* 2ND STEP 110 FT LBS

* 3RD STEP 148 FT LBS

 

LATE ENGINES WITH TTY HEAD BOLTS IDENTIFIED BY THE (T+90<) MARKING ON THE HEAD GET TORQUED IN THE FOLLOWING STEPS

IF USING A NEW BLOCK OR NEW BOLTS USE THE FOLLOWING STEPS

* 1ST STEP ALL BOLTS 70 FT LBS

* 2ND STEP REPEAT STEP 1

* 3RD STEP TORQUE 2 CENTER ROWS (14 BOLTS) TO 106 FT LBS

* 4TH STEP REPEAT STEP 3

* 5TH STEP 6 SHORT BOLTS ON EXHAUST SIDE ONLY 77 FT LBS

* 6TH STEP REPEAT STEP 5

* 7TH STEP 6 SHORT BOLTS ON INTAKE SIDE ONLY 70 FT LBS

* 8TH STEP TURN ALL BOLTS 90 DEGREES

IF USING USED BLOCK AND USED BOLTS USE THE FOLLOWING STEPS

*1ST STEP ALL BOLTS 52 FT LBS

*2ND STEP TORQUE 2 CENTER ROWS (14 BOLTS) TO 105 FT LBS

*3RD STEP RETORQUE 2 OUTER ROWS (12 BOLTS) TO 52 FT LBS

*4TH STEP RETORQUE 2 CENTER ROWS (14 BOLTS) TO 105 FT LBS

*5TH STEP TURN ALL BOLTS 90 DEGREES (AFTER FINAL DEGREE

Would you explain what step 8 and step 5 mean where it says turn all bolts 90 degrees ( after final degree).

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 minutes ago, tractorholic said:

Why? Ive never done that on any overhauled motor. Is this on a cummins or in general?

I wouldn’t put 100 miles on a road vehicle after an overhaul. Lots of dirt and chemicals get in during the rebuild flush it out after I total warmup .

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, tractorholic said:

Would you explain what step 8 and step 5 mean where it says turn all bolts 90 degrees ( after final degree).

 

Fixed it, sorry. Thanks for pointing it out. When I copied and pasted I simply missed the last line. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Today I discovered this engine starts hard when cold. I don't know if it's always been that way, this is the first time I've started it cold (30F). It eventually started but took a lot of cranking, it's not that fuel wasn't there, just wouldn't light. When it did it spit and sputtered for several seconds and the was smooth. I checked timing and it was dead on. If the pump gear was off a tooth to the cam gear, would it be noticable and what would the symptoms be? I'm not saying mine is but I did not install the camshaft myself. The cam gear was never loosened from the pump, the teeth were marked as they should engage. I know I can't check that, but has anyone played with the timing on these engines. Would the engine run fine if it was off a tooth?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, M-MAN said:

I suspect the lower compression due to the rings not being seated is your biggest problem. It will be worse the colder it is. Some of these new moly rings are awful hard to seat without break in oil. 

I agree with what you are saying and I'm hoping that's the case with this engine.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Unfortunately, your content contains terms that we do not allow. Please edit your content to remove the highlighted words below.
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

×
×
  • Create New...