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Wanted IH Low Ash oil.


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32 minutes ago, snoshoe said:

It doesn't turn them into grenades. It does greatly enhance the likelihood of a burnt valve. Ash deposits can break loose and get caught on valve face between valve and seat. Result is valve that looks like it was cut with torch. Had two or three tractors do that hooked to dyno. Happens instantly. Low ash oil and improved intake guide seals were the prescribed cure.

Yes I’ve heard versions of that, but I don’t understand why so much oil is coming down the stem to begin with. And if valve stem seals are installed, why is low ash still necessary? 

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22 minutes ago, Binderoid said:

Yes I’ve heard versions of that, but I don’t understand why so much oil is coming down the stem to begin with. And if valve stem seals are installed, why is low ash still necessary? 

In a carburated engine. It is manifold vacuum that pulls oil down the guides. It also comes up past the rings. You can run regular oil and go a long time without burning a valve. Personal experience tells me chances of burning increase greatly after 2000 hrs. But can happen anytime. The harder it works the more likely. 

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49 minutes ago, snoshoe said:

In a carburated engine. It is manifold vacuum that pulls oil down the guides. It also comes up past the rings. You can run regular oil and go a long time without burning a valve. Personal experience tells me chances of burning increase greatly after 2000 hrs. But can happen anytime. The harder it works the more likely. 

I guess I’m trying to get a grip on all this various testimony. A retired long time mechanic on Yesterdays Tractor forums is a, “No low ash in a 560 equals burnt valves” kind of guy. He spoke once of a fresh valve job he did on his 560 and ground feed for 10 minutes and burned a valve. The deposits form that fast? 

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My father bought a new 656 gas hydro back in the day. It was pretty much the main tractor and worked hard. Always just used regular oil and it got so about every six months a valve got torched. After about the third time the dealer finally talked him into using low ash oil and the problem stopped. The spark plugs also lasted a lot longer. If you can stop the oil burning, you probably will not have a problem. M&W used to make a four ring piston overhaul kit that actually made the 6 cylinder gas a long life engine.

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The former owner and mechanic I bought my shop tools and parts from said the 656 tractors were the worst for burning valves for some reason. He was the mechanic when they were new tractors.  

He also said the D15Y spark plugs with the extended tips helped somewhat. 

This book is in my service bulletin binder. Printed in 1968. GSSX 5016 is the book number. 

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2 hours ago, Binderoid said:

I guess I’m trying to get a grip on all this various testimony. A retired long time mechanic on Yesterdays Tractor forums is a, “No low ash in a 560 equals burnt valves” kind of guy. He spoke once of a fresh valve job he did on his 560 and ground feed for 10 minutes and burned a valve. The deposits form that fast? 

No they do not form that fast. The valves do burn that fast. After a valve job. It could have been any piece of foreign material that didn't get cleaned out that caused failure.

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Well our 1964 or 1965 706 burned an exhaust valve pulling 4-16s in bean ground with less than 700 hours on the clock.  I remember my Dad being upset with IH when he tried to get answers as to why it ate the valve.  Apparently IH blamed it on my Dad not using low ash oil.  But no one from IH had ever told Dad he needed to use low ash oil.  So, apparently we weren't the only ones using that series of engines that had exhaust valve issues. The Super MTA was never a problem, even with high altitude pistons.  After it's second rebuild, this one after about another 900 hours, the 706 was traded in on a low hour 966 Diesel.

Bill

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Seems like this conversation came up first 8-10 months ago.  Didn't someone look up the specs on the Shell product that CNH dealers are carrying and determine that the ash content in it was lower than the old Ambra low ash 30 wt?

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I  had a  V4 air cooled wisconson engine on a swather and every year  when  to use it I had stuck valves. I switched to low ash oil and never had a stuck valve after that.

I use low ash in all my gas tractors.           JACK

 

 

 

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4 hours ago, FarmerFixEmUp said:

When you have time read this thread from Yesterday's Tractor. Pete 23 has a few posts in there. 

https://www.yesterdaystractors.com/cgi-bin/viewit.cgi?bd=farmall&th=1006550

I miss his knowledge being shared here ..... :(

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17 hours ago, Binderoid said:

I guess I’m trying to get a grip on all this various testimony. A retired long time mechanic on Yesterdays Tractor forums is a, “No low ash in a 560 equals burnt valves” kind of guy. He spoke once of a fresh valve job he did on his 560 and ground feed for 10 minutes and burned a valve. The deposits form that fast? 

I had an 806 LP burn valves this quick and it was also while grinding feed.

I can't remember what oil it had in it?

Was it this simple?

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41 minutes ago, Diesel Doctor said:

I had an 806 LP burn valves this quick and it was also while grinding feed.

I can't remember what oil it had in it?

Was it this simple?

I wanted to get down to the reason this is happening in a small, select group of engines, and not other engines. Why some get away with not running low ash and some are stuck with it. A couple interesting things in that link to Yesterday’s Tractors: the statement about the loose seats in the head causing poor heat transfer, and why can’t the ignition timing be backed off to run 87 gas.... I would have liked the conversation to run a little further in those directions. 

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22 hours ago, Binderoid said:

I wanted to get down to the reason this is happening in a small, select group of engines, and not other engines.

That's easy. They were trying to push the limits and exceeded the capability of the technology of the time. Metallurgy. Manufacturing tolerances. Geometry. Whatever it was, they pushed things too far.

It's funny how just a little change can make a huge difference. Another model airplane example, there was a line of engines which had displacements of .40, .46, and .53 cubic inches. All identical except cylinder bore. Of the three the .46 had the best reputation, with the .53 being prone to being downright unreliable. Near as we could figure they just took out too much material and negatively affected the thermal characteristics of the engine.

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2 hours ago, Matt Kirsch said:

That's easy. They were trying to push the limits and exceeded the capability of the technology of the time. Metallurgy. Manufacturing tolerances. Geometry. Whatever it was, they pushed things too far.

It's funny how just a little change can make a huge difference. Another model airplane example, there was a line of engines which had displacements of .40, .46, and .53 cubic inches. All identical except cylinder bore. Of the three the .46 had the best reputation, with the .53 being prone to being downright unreliable. Near as we could figure they just took out too much material and negatively affected the thermal characteristics of 

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1 hour ago, Binderoid said:
3 hours ago, Matt Kirsch said:

That's easy. They were trying to push the limits and exceeded the capability of the technology of the time. Metallurgy. Manufacturing tolerances. Geometry. Whatever it was, they pushed things too far.

It's funny how just a little change can make a huge difference. Another model airplane example, there was a line of engines which had displacements of .40, .46, and .53 cubic inches. All identical except cylinder bore. Of the three the .46 had the best reputation, with the .53 being prone to being downright unreliable. Near as we could figure they just took out too much material and negatively affected the thermal characteristics of 

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Is the 301 also included as a problem engine?

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30 minutes ago, Binderoid said:

Is the 301 also included as a problem engine?

Yes, all the 6 cylinder IH engines, C221, C263, C291, C301.

Also the C200 that was used in the 504, as it is a C301 cut down to 4 cylinders.

The old C152 and C248 based engines (H-450) you can use any old oil you want unless you've reworked the engine for hardcore tractor pulling.

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i know from personal experiance that Low -ash oil killed our valve job business. The oil was around before IH promoted it, mostly speced for LP engines . Back in the early 70s late 60s after an IH 6 cylinder gas engine acummulated 1500 or so hours they tended to start burning valves so we were doing valve jobs constantly because the was a LOT of 656 and 706 gas tractors in our customer base. If the valve job didn't last you overhauled the engine it was maybe good for 1500 or so hours again . 656 gas tractors were exceptionally bad because they didn't used the sodium cooled valves the 706 and 806 used(part no 372699r2 ) the 656 exhaust valve was a 404179r1 those all got switched out. Also harder valve guides and different valve seals came along try to reduce the problem . THEN ALONG CAME LOW ASH OIL burnt exhaust valves became much less common, spark plugs lasted longer also. Unless you lived  thru it you wouldn't realize how much things changed. Now very few of those tractors are main tillage tractors and don't get worked so hard for hours on end so people can get by with other oils now days.

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7 hours ago, Matt Kirsch said:

Yes, all the 6 cylinder IH engines, C221, C263, C291, C301.

Also the C200 that was used in the 504, as it is a C301 cut down to 4 cylinders.

The old C152 and C248 based engines (H-450) you can use any old oil you want unless you've reworked the engine for hardcore tractor pulling.

Matt I think you meant c200 as used in the 544 tractor (was also in the 574 674 and related industrials) the 504 was a C153

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On 1/30/2022 at 8:01 AM, Binderoid said:

I wanted to get down to the reason this is happening in a small, select group of engines, and not other engines. Why some get away with not running low ash and some are stuck with it. A couple interesting things in that link to Yesterday’s Tractors: the statement about the loose seats in the head causing poor heat transfer, and why can’t the ignition timing be backed off to run 87 gas.... I would have liked the conversation to run a little further in those directions. 

I found you do not use any Loctite on seats.

The Loctite is an insulator that prevents heat from transferring from the seat to the head.

This causes burnt seats.

Drive them in dry and peen them in if you want.

 

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11 hours ago, Matt Kirsch said:

The old C152 and C248 based engines (H-450) you can use any old oil you want unless you've reworked the engine for hardcore tractor pulling.

Not to veer off topic,  but could someone explain this to me? In my 3 gassers I use Kendall 15-40 diesel oil and don't have issues. And they get worked hard too, ain't no parade queens here. I was always told to only use 30wt because its "better" but no one can explain that to me either. In 8 years I've never had the head off the 300 or reset the valves, and it runs as good as it ever has. I have no reason to change oils at this point, unless someone could convince me otherwise.

Mac

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If you need some low ash oil, I'll be glad to ship you a case. We have cases of it in stock at work. Just shoot me a message with your phone number.

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7 hours ago, MacAR said:

Not to veer off topic,  but could someone explain this to me? In my 3 gassers I use Kendall 15-40 diesel oil and don't have issues. And they get worked hard too, ain't no parade queens here. I was always told to only use 30wt because its "better" but no one can explain that to me either. In 8 years I've never had the head off the 300 or reset the valves, and it runs as good as it ever has. I have no reason to change oils at this point, unless someone could convince me otherwise.

Mac

There's a logical fallacy to the statement "I don't have issues," because your sample of one-two-three is not scientific. Even in worst case scenarios, the vast majority will not have problems.

On the other hand if you had 1000 tractors, all operated in the same conditions, for the same hours, using the same "wrong" oil, you will have failures. How many failures in that sample is how companies like IH come up with their recommendations. 1 failure, maybe the "wrong" oil is the "right" oil after all. Somewhere above 1 failure is "too many" for the manufacturer and the "wrong" oil officially becomes the "wrong" oil. Manufacturers don't want to do warranty work so that number is exceedingly small, even as few as one or zero.

We all look at 1% failure rate and think, that's not so bad. That's 1 in 100 tractors. To the manufacturer, that's unsustainable. 1 in 1000, or a 0.1% failure rate, which is better but manufacturers want to put as many zeros on the right side of that decimal point as they can.

Ok so back to the oil. 15W-40 is SAE 15 oil with polymers that make it behave like 40 weight oil at operating temperature. Straight 30 is 30 when cold, 30 at operating temperature. Starts out thicker. In the older engines where the tolerances are wider, the thicker oil protects better.

If you're not having problems there's no reason to change. Even if you do have problems there is no way to know if it is just 70 years of wear and tear, or the oil did something bad. There would be absolutely no reason to change what you're doing. Fix or replace the tractor and continue using your 15W-40.

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Talked with my friend last night that overhauled an engine that had been running Schaeffer oils.

He found the inside of that engine to be coated with something that Brakeleen and solvent would not touch.

The head went to a local rebuilder and his cleaning tank would not take the snot off the head either. 

The only thing that was odd was the use of Schaeffer oil.

Has anyone had this type of experience with the Schaeffer's.

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