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Decided to see if she would run.....


Dajain

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8 hours ago, acem said:

What year is she?

Do you have the line setting ticket ?

I have the parts and service manuals for loadstars up to 76?

I'll try to help.

Thx-Ace 

She is a '69 Loadstar 1700 and if you have a service manual, that would be awesome. But since the drivetrain is a custom order, I doubt the standard book will cover any of the drivetrain. The Allison transmission is this thing does have the electric shift controller and '69 was the first year Allison put that option out to the public, but it was only available for "off-road" vehicles only. If your '69 service manual covers that transmission, that would be a true gem to look at.

I highly doubt the LST is in the truck. That would be amazing if it is. But I didn't even get a title for the old girl so having the LST in the glovebox would be kind of a miracle.

She'll be baby steps at first. Looking for the carb rebuild kit right now. It is a governed Holley but Holley did give me a lead on a place that might be able to help. They couldn't provide a kit number on this one and something about they sold all their archives or something. 

Once I have her all up and going, tires will be the last thing. I got a quote once when I first got the truck a year ago and they are almost $1000 each. That's when the full commitment will be shown. haha

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11 hours ago, nomorejohndeere said:

I'll wager that Coleman(later American-Coleman) made their own stuff:

http://www.littletongov.org/history/othertopics/coleman.asp

This post poached from OldIHC courtesy of 'Severely Addicted':

Great Link to the Littleton Historical Society! Thanks!

American Coleman apparently was in business until recently. I did a bit of chasing around to determine if parts were still available.

"Coleman (or Holmes) Joint- Invented by Harley Holmes for American Coleman
in the early 1920s, the Coleman joint was and still is a unique
application. A straight axle is used and the hub pivots around it. The
joint pivots in four places but looks like a giant gimbal. The Coleman axle
was used into the 1980s, mostly in big truck applications.'

Coleman Axles were installed in a lot of trucks. You'll know the Coleman Axle by the strange "Power Yoke & Compensating Ring" that it uses out at the wheels instead of the usual u-joints.

In IH's of approx 1970 vintage (the year of our 1700 4x4 Loadstar), Coleman axles were used by IH as follows (that I'm aware of):

FA-57 (used in 1600 Series)
FA-59 (used in 1700 Series) Coleman Model SD9, Steel Stamp ID'd SD9RLH on our housing.

I think the FA-59 / SD9 is a 9,000 Gross Axle Weight Rating axle. I believe the "drop-in unit", or differential/ring & pinion carrier was built by Eaton. I have yet to verify this or determine what Eaton Axle model shares components.

I have parts diagrams and numbers in our Loadstar Parts Catalog.

Get in the hub area and give the rings and yokes some good shaking to assess wear. Ours has needed significant re-bushing and refurbishment. Looks burly enough to go the distance once we get it right, though.

Fun site (Truck Crazy!) with a picture of the axle. Click on the "thumbnail" photo to view larger pic.

http://www.vannattabros.com/truck4a.html

Hope you get that truck, IH's all deserve a good home.

RK-ik


The design of the steering/drive joint is just flat ingenious, the first time I saw the exploded diagram I was in awe once I figgered out how it worked. Didn't realize until now how old the design was, even more impressive!
 

Thank you for this info NoMore! Copied and pasted the info and did a few link follows and Coleman is definitely what this axle is. That's 500x more info than I knew before and it is greatly appreciated.  I hope my humor didn't offend you. I can be jokingly crude sometime and I forget the internet doesn't portray that humor very well. 

And now the research begins! Maintenance, trouble spots, etc. 

This will be an interesting learning experience I think. Hope it's fun too!

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21 minutes ago, nomorejohndeere said:

I'm very careful when posting to not come across as sarcastic.  I have an unblemished record. 

 

 

You weren't sarcastic at all and I do appreciate the info. I am just a jokester in person and I meant absolutely nothing negative by what I said. The last thing I want is for you to think I don't appreciate the help/info. 

I do hope you see the humor behind it though. :)

I am all over the web now looking for info on these Coleman's. Not really that much out there considering they were around for so long.

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One thing that is really interesting about this rig....

The Coleman axle in the front is almost a foot wider than the axle in the rear. The pictures really don't show this very well. 

But, the reason for that is for off roading thru mud and such. Youll see it on professional mud trucks. It keeps the rear tires from riding in the same "groove" as the front tires and gives more floatation in theory. But in reality, I'm not quite sure what kind of floatation they expected when hauling 10,000 pounds of water in the back. 

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The front axle is in the parts and service manuals. There were two different 4wd front axles available in the 1700 and a different one available in the 1600 at that time. I've actually seen several 60s and 70s loadstars with 4wd. It was a factory option. They are not common but far from rare.

If you need to work on them I'll try to get it posted. The parts diagrams ain't bad but the service manual section is several pages.

I found the Allison transmission in the parts book but not my service manual. I've seen many more loadstars with 4x4 than Alison transmission!

Thx-Ace 

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Local road district had a 67 and 68 1700 series truck in the day. Both had the Coleman front ends. Took a country mile to turn them in much like the tractors on the ag side. One of the big things I recall was you could not keep exhaust header pipes on the side the front diff was on as little clearance between housing and pipe when axle moved up and down. These trucks were 5 speeds and pretty sure 392 engines but that has been a long time ago. 

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7 hours ago, acem said:

The front axle is in the parts and service manuals. There were two different 4wd front axles available in the 1700 and a different one available in the 1600 at that time. I've actually seen several 60s and 70s loadstars with 4wd. It was a factory option. They are not common but far from rare.

If you need to work on them I'll try to get it posted. The parts diagrams ain't bad but the service manual section is several pages.

I found the Allison transmission in the parts book but not my service manual. I've seen many more loadstars with 4x4 than Alison transmission!

Thx-Ace 

Once I get going on this old girl, I'll want to go thru everything to insure there aren't any surprises 50 miles in the middle of nowhere if I need it there. I don't want to be troublesome but if you want to share those manuals, that would be awesome. I'll pm you my private email if that would be easier.

5 hours ago, IHC_1470 said:

Local road district had a 67 and 68 1700 series truck in the day. Both had the Coleman front ends. Took a country mile to turn them in much like the tractors on the ag side. One of the big things I recall was you could not keep exhaust header pipes on the side the front diff was on as little clearance between housing and pipe when axle moved up and down. These trucks were 5 speeds and pretty sure 392 engines but that has been a long time ago. 

From my research so far, '69 was the first year that Allison offered this electric shift control for their transmissions and it was for offroad vehicles only. That would mean the trucks you remember ('67 & '68) would have a different transmission than this truck has. Looking at the shifter, I thought it would be a pretty safe assumption that this transmission is a 6 speed with the top setting being 3-6.

I would have thought 2 country miles were would have been needed to turn this thing around. haha I don't doubt that every ounce of power assist is need for this thing either. I'll look at that header pipe and see what you are referring too. Thank you for the heads up on that. Stories of any "gremlins" that these old girls have is always appreciated.

56 minutes ago, Eason said:

235 hp would be a 392 engine.

That is what the VIN tag says the Gross HP is. I did verify the engine thru the carburetor number also. 

Funny thing is, I couldn't find anything or anyone to decode the VIN number for this old girl so until I started this research, I had my suspicion it was a '69 but nothing definitive. Once I ran the numbers from the Holley carb, that's when some questions got answered such as year, engine size, transmission, etc. 

 

Thank you guys for the great info!!! I really appreciate every comment! 

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11 minutes ago, yellowrosefarm said:

I put an Edelbrock 600 carb on the 392 I had in my 72 IH pickup and it ran great and didn't leak!

I have this '76 Fleetstar 2010  dump truck with the 478 gasser in it and I did the same exact thing. Put an Edelbrock 750 on it and never looked back. She doesn't see more than 5 miles at a time doing dump runs but she always fires right up without issues.

If I can't find the rebuild kit for the original, I'll probably go that route. Did you have to re-jet for the little bigger bore? Any lean running issue?

Some of the terrain this thing might see though, the governed carb would be a major plus since she has just hydraulic brakes and not air. 

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Found a carb kit to rebuild. It's pretty expensive for a rebuild kit @ over $100 delivered.

Now, the ultimate question....

Holley's are great carbs but not known for their offroad capabilities, but this one has the governor on it.

Edelbrock performs much better in offroad conditions but no governor and $300 more in price.

hmmmm.

 

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The trucks I mentioned were 5 speed manual transmissions. There was only one road district in the area that ran one truck with Allison. That truck also had a 2 speed rear end. One thing about IH they would build it just about anyway a customer wanted it if at all possible. 

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3 hours ago, Dajain said:

I have this '76 Fleetstar 2010  dump truck with the 478 gasser in it and I did the same exact thing. Put an Edelbrock 750 on it and never looked back. She doesn't see more than 5 miles at a time doing dump runs but she always fires right up without issues.

If I can't find the rebuild kit for the original, I'll probably go that route. Did you have to re-jet for the little bigger bore? Any lean running issue?

Some of the terrain this thing might see though, the governed carb would be a major plus since she has just hydraulic brakes and not air. 

I did play with the metering rods and jets since it was my first EDB carb, but I don't know how much difference it really made. It ran good out of the box. Definitely made me never look back to a Holley.  (flame suit on)

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1 hour ago, IHC_1470 said:

The trucks I mentioned were 5 speed manual transmissions. There was only one road district in the area that ran one truck with Allison. That truck also had a 2 speed rear end. One thing about IH they would build it just about anyway a customer wanted it if at all possible. 

This one doesn't have the 2 speed rear BUT it does have a hi/low transfer case. Makes me think 3 mph in 1st gear and low range. haha

 

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The truck I mentioned with the Allison and 2 speed was a 2wd single axle truck. The two 4wds as I recall had hi low transfer cases. Got to remember that was back when I was about 16 years old. Had a summer job with that road district. Dad was the foreman. Was a one man show with 90 miles to maintain. 

Would be interesting to see 2 speeds in a 4wd truck. Can just imagine the carnage if one axle made the shift and the other did not! Doubt that would have been something engineering would have considered doing.

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16 minutes ago, IHC_1470 said:

The truck I mentioned with the Allison and 2 speed was a 2wd single axle truck. The two 4wds as I recall had hi low transfer cases. Got to remember that was back when I was about 16 years old. Had a summer job with that road district. Dad was the foreman. Was a one man show with 90 miles to maintain. 

Would be interesting to see 2 speeds in a 4wd truck. Can just imagine the carnage if one axle made the shift and the other did not! Doubt that would have been something engineering would have considered doing.

Having a 53 year old electric shift transmission already has me nervous enough. haha

Considering every 2 speed rear I have here has needed repairs when I got them, I think that would just be a recipe for disaster. especially being this old and sitting for so long.

 

 

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4 hours ago, Dajain said:

Found a carb kit to rebuild. It's pretty expensive for a rebuild kit @ over $100 delivered.

Now, the ultimate question....

Holley's are great carbs but not known for their offroad capabilities, but this one has the governor on it.

Edelbrock performs much better in offroad conditions but no governor and $300 more in price.

hmmmm.

 

I did find the kit cheaper from a place in Texas, so I'm going that route. 

First time it fails, I'm going Edelbrock. haha

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So, the "bed" sidewalls on this thing are aluminum but a steel bed.

Say it didn't have the bed on it at all, what does this thing weigh?

I know the GVWR says 25,000 pounds but what is the weight of the actual unit? 

The motor research says 800 +/- pounds.

Guessing the front axle is 1200 lbs, rear 800 lbs? 

Frame, cab and fenders 2000 lbs?

My guess is about 6000 pounds total without the bed. Does that sound about right?

Asking because my trailer is rated for 14k and my service truck has a GVWR of 24.5k and wondering if I could legally haul with my DOT restrictions.

 

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3 hours ago, Dajain said:

Having a 53 year old electric shift transmission already has me nervous enough. haha

Considering every 2 speed rear I have here has needed repairs when I got them, I think that would just be a recipe for disaster. especially being this old and sitting for so long.

 

 

Much to my surprise (and I think I'm counting my lucky stars) this is not the electric shift transmission. 

When I looked under the dash, there is a lot of organized wires around the shifter on the back/underneath of the dash, so I assumed it was an electric shifter. 

Today, I crawled underneath the truck to investigate some more.

This has the standard, 6 speed MT40 transmission. 

I'm actually happy it isn't the electric shift. Would hate to be shut down because of a discontinued $45 solenoid. 

Any thoughts on this transmission? I'll keep doing my research. :)

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My manuals don't mention two speed front axles so it probably wasn't available.

The 2300 holley with a governor isn't the most reliable carburetor out there. But they do work. One of my loadstars has a different holley that is more reliable in my experience. It requires an automatic choke though. I forget the number but it looks like the factory 2 bbl carb on my 78 ramcharger with 360.

A bare 2wd loadstar 1700 weights just under 6,000 lb according to my paperwork.

I have no experience with the Allison automatic transmission. I've always avoided automatics in big trucks.

Thx-Ace 

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1 hour ago, acem said:

My manuals don't mention two speed front axles so it probably wasn't available.

The 2300 holley with a governor isn't the most reliable carburetor out there. But they do work. One of my loadstars has a different holley that is more reliable in my experience. It requires an automatic choke though. I forget the number but it looks like the factory 2 bbl carb on my 78 ramcharger with 360.

A bare 2wd loadstar 1700 weights just under 6,000 lb according to my paperwork.

I have no experience with the Allison automatic transmission. I've always avoided automatics in big trucks.

Thx-Ace 

My carb is a 4300 series (4324). The 392 came with a factory 4 bbl where the factory 345 came with a 2 bbl. My '72 Loadstar 1600 had the Holley 2 bbl on it and got rid of it the first sign of trouble.

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