DT407 Piston coolers

[Cooter]

I just bought a 407 engine core for a rebuild project and upon tear down I noticed that there was only one oil squirt nozzle per piston.  I thought the factory turbo engines were suppose to have two?  The 361 in my early 806 had one per cylinder like the first picture, but had provisions for two, but only one hole was drilled and a nozzle inserted. 

My core 361 I have in the barn doesn't have ANY oil squirt nozzles in it at all. 

Are the factory turbo engines suppose to have two nozzles?  This block is a DT407-C4, so it was the latest and greatest and would have the most cooling possible.

[Eason]

DT stood for Diesel tractor and should have only 1 squirter per hole. TT stood for Turbo tractor and should have 2 squirters per hole.

[Dan Robinson]

Early 361 blocks had no coolers at all. Later on they added one. Then when turboed 361s came out they had two and the non turbos, just one, with the second hole drilled and steel ball driven in to block the hole. 

As stated above that is a non turbo 407 block. You can knock out the steel balls and at the 2nd coolers. 

I see it's also a C4 block, so the best you can get.

[Cooter]

17 hours ago, Eason said:

DT stood for Diesel tractor and should have only 1 squirter per hole. TT stood for Turbo tractor and should have 2 squirters per hole.

Ah, that's good to know.  Tomorrow I'll have to go look at the 10 and 14 to see if they say DT or TT. Any of the documentation I have have doesn't show the TT identifier, only the D and DT .  The DT stood for Diesel Turbo meaning that it was turbo charged from the factory.  The NA diesel engines just had the D-xxx simply telling you it was a diesel.   So if this engine was destined to be in a loader or dozer it would not have had DT or TT stamped in it? 

 

12 hours ago, Dan Robinson said:

Early 361 blocks had no coolers at all. Later on they added one. Then when turboed 361s came out they had two and the non turbos, just one, with the second hole drilled and steel ball driven in to block the hole. 

As stated above that is a non turbo 407 block. You can knock out the steel balls and at the 2nd coolers. 

I see it's also a C4 block, so the best you can get.

Ah, that makes sense I guess.  I am curious why it is stamped DT for a NA block.

Those oil nozzles caps from CNH are $138.45 😳😲.  YIKES!!  There can't be much to them that a person couldn't make a set.  I tried to take one out of my 361 to see what there was to them and the two I tried didn't want to come out, and for $140 each I wasn't going to ruin one.

[Eason]

I've had 2 856's and both had DT407 blocks. 

[R190]

My 815 engine is stamped D407F I will have to look at my payloader later.

[Nebraska1206]

15 hours ago, Cooter said:

Ah, that's good to know.  Tomorrow I'll have to go look at the 10 and 14 to see if they say DT or TT. Any of the documentation I have have doesn't show the TT identifier, only the D and DT .  The DT stood for Diesel Turbo meaning that it was turbo charged from the factory.  The NA diesel engines just had the D-xxx simply telling you it was a diesel.   So if this engine was destined to be in a loader or dozer it would not have had DT or TT stamped in it? 

 

Ah, that makes sense I guess.  I am curious why it is stamped DT for a NA block.

Those oil nozzles caps from CNH are $138.45 😳😲.  YIKES!!  There can't be much to them that a person couldn't make a set.  I tried to take one out of my 361 to see what there was to them and the two I tried didn't want to come out, and for $140 each I wasn't going to ruin one.

The use of D, DT, and TT to designate naturally aspirated versus turbocharged engines from IH got a little confusing, because IH switched up the way they designated & stamped the blocks with the introduction of the 56 series tractors.  Prior to that, a 361 block was stamped D361 for an 806, and DT361 for a 1206.  When they went to the 56 series, that all changed.  Now a block stamped 407DT was a naturally aspirated block for an 856, and a block stamped 407TT was a turbocharged block for a 1256.  This new method continued throughout IH with their engine production.

A lot of people aren't aware of this change, and mistake a lot of naturally aspirated 407 blocks for turbocharged blocks.

 

[Sparky]

20 hours ago, Cooter said:

Ah, that's good to know.  Tomorrow I'll have to go look at the 10 and 14 to see if they say DT or TT. Any of the documentation I have have doesn't show the TT identifier, only the D and DT .  The DT stood for Diesel Turbo meaning that it was turbo charged from the factory.  The NA diesel engines just had the D-xxx simply telling you it was a diesel.   So if this engine was destined to be in a loader or dozer it would not have had DT or TT stamped in it? 

 

 

Ah, that makes sense I guess.  I am curious why it is stamped DT for a NA block.

Those oil nozzles caps from CNH are $138.45 😳😲.  YIKES!!  There can't be much to them that a person couldn't make a set.  I tried to take one out of my 361 to see what there was to them and the two I tried didn't want to come out, and for $140 each I wasn't going to ruin one.

As far as the "DT" or "TT", we are talking about what is stamped on the block...not what you think the parts man wants to hear. Any good parts man already knows that an 856 is naturally aspirated and already knows that it's a 407....

As far as your loader or dozer engine....no....it will have D or T to start out, but the second letter will be different, because it's not a tractor....on the 300 and 400 series engines, that was signified by a C....so the block lettering would be something like 414DC if it was naturally aspirated or 414TC if it was turboed.

As far as the oil jets....yeah, pricey little buggers. Back in the 70's and 80's those were a couple bucks a piece....

Travis

[Hy1066]

What are the other variations are there for 407 blocks? Dan Robinson mentioned C4. What does the C4 get someone? Is it cast heavier?

I understand NA vs Turbo, I am just referring to the C4 designation. 

 

Thanks 

[Nebraska1206]

The 407 block went through 4 casting variations.

The C1 was the first version, and is the easiest to identify, by the 5 recessed areas in the block on the RH side of the block.  The possibility of the casting cracking internally and dumping antifreeze in the oil pan was the reason there was an IH service bulletin issued to replace failed C1 blocks.

The C2 block was the next version, and is very common to most 856's & 1256's.  C2's are quite common, and were a good production block.

The C3 block was the 3rd version, and had a higher nickel content than the C2 block.  From what I've seen, most C3 blocks were factory replacement blocks for failed C1 blocks.  If you see a C3 block, and there's nothing stamped in the pad for a block model & serial number, chances are it was a replacement block, and the dealer that replaced it forgot to transfer the serial number over from the original failed block.

The C4 block was the final variation of the 407, and is the most sought after, as it's the strongest and also has a very high nickel content of all 407 blocks (although some will argue that a C3 is still just as good, if not better).  The C4 was introduced at the very end of 1256 production, but would be the only block version seen in the 1456's and 1026 Hydro's from factory.  The 856 & 1256 could have had all four versions, depending on when they left the factory.

[Cooter]

On 1/10/2022 at 5:01 AM, Eason said:

DT stood for Diesel tractor and should have only 1 squirter per hole. TT stood for Turbo tractor and should have 2 squirters per hole.

15 hours ago, Sparky said:

As far as the "DT" or "TT", we are talking about what is stamped on the block...not what you think the parts man wants to hear. Any good parts man already knows that an 856 is naturally aspirated and already knows that it's a 407....

As far as your loader or dozer engine....no....it will have D or T to start out, but the second letter will be different, because it's not a tractor....on the 300 and 400 series engines, that was signified by a C....so the block lettering would be something like 414DC if it was naturally aspirated or 414TC if it was turboed.

As far as the oil jets....yeah, pricey little buggers. Back in the 70's and 80's those were a couple bucks a piece....

Travis

Not that I doubted you, but until this point I had no reason to go looking, and all the documentation that I have only show the D and DT moniker.  So I went on a quest through the barns to see what there was to see, and this is what I found:

1206 with the DT stamping

 

1256 with TT

1026

 

1456

 

I find it interesting all the quirky innuendos of IH's numbering system that don't always follow a uniform direction.

So then the only difference between the DT and TT blocks is the addition of a second oil squirter? 

Were there any differences in the heads between 361/407?  Did the later ones ever have hardened intake seats from the factory?

 

[hippy5488]

the squirters where $7.64 in 1985

[Mike56073]

If those jets are the same number as 414/436/466 motors (343464R1), reliance sells them for $24 each. I know how reliance has a bad reputation on here, but if the they press in ok and have the correct orifice size they should work fine.

[Cooter]

On 1/11/2022 at 10:03 PM, Nebraska1206 said:

The 407 block went through 4 casting variations.

The C1 was the first version, and is the easiest to identify, by the 5 recessed areas in the block on the RH side of the block.  The possibility of the casting cracking internally and dumping antifreeze in the oil pan was the reason there was an IH service bulletin issued to replace failed C1 blocks.

The C2 block was the next version, and is very common to most 856's & 1256's.  C2's are quite common, and were a good production block.

The C3 block was the 3rd version, and had a higher nickel content than the C2 block.  From what I've seen, most C3 blocks were factory replacement blocks for failed C1 blocks.  If you see a C3 block, and there's nothing stamped in the pad for a block model & serial number, chances are it was a replacement block, and the dealer that replaced it forgot to transfer the serial number over from the original failed block.

The C4 block was the final variation of the 407, and is the most sought after, as it's the strongest and also has a very high nickel content of all 407 blocks (although some will argue that a C3 is still just as good, if not better).  The C4 was introduced at the very end of 1256 production, but would be the only block version seen in the 1456's and 1026 Hydro's from factory.  The 856 & 1256 could have had all four versions, depending on when they left the factory.

Did the serial number on the block match the serial number on the tag?

[Farmall Doctor]

9 hours ago, Mike56073 said:

If those jets are the same number as 414/436/466 motors (343464R1), reliance sells them for $24 each. I know how reliance has a bad reputation on here, but if the they press in ok and have the correct orifice size they should work fine.

I have some in a drawer from the reliance kit for a 986… they send them whether needed or not. I haven’t quite figured out the pure hatred everyone on here has for Reliance… did they suggest using 30w oil and HyTran or something? The machine shops that I deal with all recommend their kits. I put one in a green and yellow 4430 a year ago and haven’t had any complaints. 

[Nebraska1206]

7 hours ago, Cooter said:

Did the serial number on the block match the serial number on the tag?

No, the engine serial number did not match the tractor serial number

[pirlbeck]

10 hours ago, Mike56073 said:

If those jets are the same number as 414/436/466 motors (343464R1), reliance sells them for $24 each. I know how reliance has a bad reputation on here, but if the they press in ok and have the correct orifice size they should work fine.

I looked the part number up for the piston cooling orifices for a 407 and they are the same number (343464R1) as listed above.  I show the current price to be $174.00. Messick's shows them at $138.45, which is a little unusual as Messick's prices are always just a little more then my local dealers. 

[Cooter]

While true with many things, some have good luck and other have bad.  I was one of the ones who has had bad luck with Reliance; which is why I am in search of another core engine to rebuild. 

• My 706 diesel head gasket looked like regular gasket material with some copper rings haphazardly stuck in it and was really poor quality; so I search out a Fel-Pro head gasket for that.  Had the block honed, installed reliance rings, and now has more blow by now after 1000hrs than the original engine did.
• The reliance kit in my 806 gave up after about 100 hrs, I think due to a broken piston.  I was baling hay when it started knocking, so I immediately shut it off and towed it home.  It will start and sounds normal at idle, but begins a distinctive knock at about 1500rpm, so I've only used it to move itself and wagons around the yard.  I will build a long block and swap engines when the new one is ready, thus minimizing the time taking up space in the shop.

My personal thought for some having good luck and others bad is due to the over seas metallurgy and the quality of the materials made.  With china made stuff, you are really playing Roulette unless the company has stringent standards accepting the quality of parts being made for them.   So when it comes to rebuilding IH engines I am going to seek out Federal Mogul, Sealed Power, Mahle, Victor, Fel-Pro, etc. from now on.

[Cooter]

12 hours ago, Mike56073 said:

If those jets are the same number as 414/436/466 motors (343464R1), reliance sells them for $24 each. I know how reliance has a bad reputation on here, but if the they press in ok and have the correct orifice size they should work fine.

2 hours ago, pirlbeck said:

I looked the part number up for the piston cooling orifices for a 407 and they are the same number (343464R1) as listed above.  I show the current price to be $174.00. Messick's shows them at $138.45, which is a little unusual as Messick's prices are always just a little more then my local dealers. 

 

Aren't they just some round stock with a specific sized hole drilled in them?  Is there a check valve or anything inside?  I haven't examined them that close, so I am asking.

 

[Farmall Doctor]

14 minutes ago, Cooter said:

While true with many things, some have good luck and other have bad.  I was one of the ones who has had bad luck with Reliance; which is why I am in search of another core engine to rebuild. 

• My 706 diesel head gasket looked like regular gasket material with some copper rings haphazardly stuck in it and was really poor quality; so I search out a Fel-Pro head gasket for that.  Had the block honed, installed reliance rings, and now has more blow by now after 1000hrs than the original engine did.
• The reliance kit in my 806 gave up after about 100 hrs, I think due to a broken piston.  I was baling hay when it started knocking, so I immediately shut it off and towed it home.  It will start and sounds normal at idle, but begins a distinctive knock at about 1500rpm, so I've only used it to move itself and wagons around the yard.  I will build a long block and swap engines when the new one is ready, thus minimizing the time taking up space in the shop.

My personal thought for some having good luck and others bad is due to the over seas metallurgy and the quality of the materials made.  With china made stuff, you are really playing Roulette unless the company has stringent standards accepting the quality of parts being made for them.   So when it comes to rebuilding IH engines I am going to seek out Federal Mogul, Sealed Power, Mahle, Victor, Fel-Pro, etc. from now on.

About how long ago did you buy those parts from Reliance? My supplier just started carrying them, through All States.  The kits are now coming with pistons, rings pre-assembled in the sleeves and I was instructed to not disassemble them. just bump the piston down far enough to put the connecting rod on... like Cat kits have been for years. I asked around to other very reputable professional machine shops and got good reviews. Maybe the company was going through some growing pains. I don't know.

[Nebraska1206]

Just now, Farmall Doctor said:

About how long ago did you buy those parts from Reliance? My supplier just started carrying them, through All States.  The kits are now coming with pistons, rings pre-assembled in the sleeves and I was instructed to not disassemble them. just bump the piston down far enough to put the connecting rod on... like Cat kits have been for years. I asked around to other very reputable professional machine shops and got good reviews. Maybe the company was going through some growing pains. I don't know.

Reliance is indeed sending the piston/sleeves/rings all pre-installed, however, for the sake of my own sanity, I'll pull the pistons all the way out of the sleeves.  For one, the last one I did was a DT407, of which there's no choice but to do that in order to correctly install the sleeves.  Two, the end gap on every single piston ring was lined up in a row on every piston.  Those of us who've overhauled enough engines know that you stagger the ring gaps on the pistons.  I've heard from others who received Reliance kits where all the piston ring gaps were lined up on the piston.

[Farmall Doctor]

8 hours ago, Nebraska1206 said:

Reliance is indeed sending the piston/sleeves/rings all pre-installed, however, for the sake of my own sanity, I'll pull the pistons all the way out of the sleeves.  For one, the last one I did was a DT407, of which there's no choice but to do that in order to correctly install the sleeves.  Two, the end gap on every single piston ring was lined up in a row on every piston.  Those of us who've overhauled enough engines know that you stagger the ring gaps on the pistons.  I've heard from others who received Reliance kits where all the piston ring gaps were lined up on the piston.

Dang! Well, maybe I got lucky on that green weenie. I'll be sure to say something to my supplier, and if I do another one, I will check it! Another side note though, Caterpillar did studies on piston rings in the lab and found that they progressively work their ways around the bore over hours of run time. They should be staggered at even intervals though, and I was taught in trade school to avoid lining any up with the piston pin. 

[Sparky]

13 hours ago, Farmall Doctor said:

 Another side note though, Caterpillar did studies on piston rings in the lab and found that they progressively work their ways around the bore over hours of run time. They should be staggered at even intervals though, and I was taught in trade school to avoid lining any up with the piston pin. 

That's true....and I stagger rings when I install them, too...but they should *never* start out with all the rig gaps aligned. That's just asking for trouble.

Travis

[Rawleigh99]

Almost looks like you could adapt a zerk fitting with the ball removed.

[Cooter]

On 1/13/2022 at 11:45 AM, Farmall Doctor said:

About how long ago did you buy those parts from Reliance? My supplier just started carrying them, through All States.  The kits are now coming with pistons, rings pre-assembled in the sleeves and I was instructed to not disassemble them. just bump the piston down far enough to put the connecting rod on... like Cat kits have been for years. I asked around to other very reputable professional machine shops and got good reviews. Maybe the company was going through some growing pains. I don't know.

Early summer of 2019.  It could just be a fluke and weird stuff happens.  But it makes me hesitant to want to spend money on another overhaul kit from them, especially because these engines aren't cheap to rebuild.