Jess_656D Posted January 6, 2022 Share Posted January 6, 2022 I have 2 656D (D282) tractors, one runner one parts. The runner has the wide flange liner the other narrow flange. Any thoughts on best one? Also has any one have any success with a machine shop installing hardened valve seats. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ksfarmdude Posted January 6, 2022 Share Posted January 6, 2022 3 hours ago, Jess_656D said: I have 2 656D (D282) tractors, one runner one parts. The runner has the wide flange liner the other narrow flange. Any thoughts on best one? Also has any one have any success with a machine shop installing hardened valve seats. Are you going to rebuild one with new parts ? As far as the valve seats any qualified Diesel machine shop can replace the seats and get them in spec 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rustred Posted January 6, 2022 Share Posted January 6, 2022 3 hours ago, Jess_656D said: I have 2 656D (D282) tractors, one runner one parts. The runner has the wide flange liner the other narrow flange. Any thoughts on best one? Also has any one have any success with a machine shop installing hardened valve seats. i did not think in that time frame there was 2 different sleeves. one is from the early 282 's Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ksfarmdude Posted January 6, 2022 Share Posted January 6, 2022 1 minute ago, rustred said: i did not think in that time frame there was 2 different sleeves. one is from the early 282 's There was a serial number break on when they were changed I know on my 656 it had the thinner small flange sleeves (heavy press type ) its a fairly early serial number Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jess_656D Posted January 6, 2022 Author Share Posted January 6, 2022 My runner is ser,# 135xx built back in 1965. My parts machine is 14xxx and has thin flange press the runner can also be a thin flange, haven had the head off runner yet. Read another's thread engine ser# 71777 is thick flange and 71778 is thin flange. So which is a better motor. I'm thinking thick flange if shimed properly. There a major diesel machine shop here that can cut the head for harden seats. Just checking if it's a good thing for d282 with sunk valves. Would definitely help compression. Side note, I have a 10' land pride 6 way blade I pull. Tractor has huge bolt on weights for rear wheel hubs. With a sick motor. 1 dead hole most of the time and lots of blow by I can still pull a full blade 2/ direct or 3/under. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cdfarabaugh Posted January 6, 2022 Share Posted January 6, 2022 50 minutes ago, Jess_656D said: My runner is ser,# 135xx built back in 1965. My parts machine is 14xxx and has thin flange press the runner can also be a thin flange, haven had the head off runner yet. Read another's thread engine ser# 71777 is thick flange and 71778 is thin flange. So which is a better motor. I'm thinking thick flange if shimed properly. There a major diesel machine shop here that can cut the head for harden seats. Just checking if it's a good thing for d282 with sunk valves. Would definitely help compression. Side note, I have a 10' land pride 6 way blade I pull. Tractor has huge bolt on weights for rear wheel hubs. With a sick motor. 1 dead hole most of the time and lots of blow by I can still pull a full blade 2/ direct or 3/under. The heavy press fit liners are definitely the better setup giving less head gasket issues but require a special process involving press tooling and machine work to get them to fit properly in the bores. Nothing really wrong with the older style either but it can be a pain as well getting them shimmed to height. Last 282 I did I had the block skimmed and trued up and the counter bores trimmed up. Measuring the flanges my machine shop got the liner height dead on without shims. Was time consuming of course. Without doing this you're going to end up pulling and pressing liners in until you get it right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rustred Posted January 6, 2022 Share Posted January 6, 2022 1 hour ago, Jess_656D said: My runner is ser,# 135xx built back in 1965. My parts machine is 14xxx and has thin flange press the runner can also be a thin flange, haven had the head off runner yet. Read another's thread engine ser# 71777 is thick flange and 71778 is thin flange. So which is a better motor. I'm thinking thick flange if shimed properly. There a major diesel machine shop here that can cut the head for harden seats. Just checking if it's a good thing for d282 with sunk valves. Would definitely help compression. Side note, I have a 10' land pride 6 way blade I pull. Tractor has huge bolt on weights for rear wheel hubs. With a sick motor. 1 dead hole most of the time and lots of blow by I can still pull a full blade 2/ direct or 3/under. no buts about it. if the seats are worn just replace them. very important to have the correct valve height on these tractors for starting. by the time you grind the seats and valves you will be running into valve recession below spec. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Binderoid Posted January 7, 2022 Share Posted January 7, 2022 19 minutes ago, rustred said: no buts about it. if the seats are worn just replace them. very important to have the correct valve height on these tractors for starting. by the time you grind the seats and valves you will be running into valve recession below spec. No mention of valve recession in I-T manual. Would someone be good enough to provide the answer from a blue ribbon manual? Got a head on the bench right now wanting this info. Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rustred Posted January 7, 2022 Share Posted January 7, 2022 9 minutes ago, Binderoid said: No mention of valve recession in I-T manual. Would someone be good enough to provide the answer from a blue ribbon manual? Got a head on the bench right now wanting this info. Thanks. if i was looking at it i can give answer. but as i said if you got to regrind the seats again that might have been ground once already that is not the way to go. replace the seat. same with the valves... if the margin is thin replace the valves. i do not have the actual spec. for recession. keep them up and all will be good. and no you will not find it in the it manual. maybe in the ihc service manual. as they say when in dought replace. are you doing the valve grind yourself? a good machine shop would or should know all this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jess_656D Posted January 7, 2022 Author Share Posted January 7, 2022 So thick flange was where all the head gasket problems you hear about, makes sense. This machine shop I'm thinking about can handle heavy press liners. If they do the head, liners then let them long block it done! More back story on this parts tractor. I bought the tractor sight unseen. Seller said fire didn't hurt the engine, Still had all the fluids in it. Fire started behind the instrument cluster from a misplaced fuse on a ground wire from some hay equipment controler bolted to the fender, B+ to the starter. Fire wrapped around the front of the timming cover burning through injection pump housing and into the timing cover scorching the timming gears. So I'm afraid it took the temper out of the gears. So I'm shopping for a set of timming gears and dampner which might be an issue. The fire didn't hurt anything else on the motor Thank all for your recommendations! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FarmerFixEmUp Posted January 7, 2022 Share Posted January 7, 2022 valve recession is -.003 to -.046. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Binderoid Posted January 7, 2022 Share Posted January 7, 2022 1 hour ago, FarmerFixEmUp said: valve recession is -.003 to -.046. Thank you. .046” I had no idea they were that deep Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Binderoid Posted January 7, 2022 Share Posted January 7, 2022 5 hours ago, rustred said: if i was looking at it i can give answer. but as i said if you got to regrind the seats again that might have been ground once already that is not the way to go. replace the seat. same with the valves... if the margin is thin replace the valves. i do not have the actual spec. for recession. keep them up and all will be good. and no you will not find it in the it manual. maybe in the ihc service manual. as they say when in dought replace. are you doing the valve grind yourself? a good machine shop would or should know all this. Yes the seats are in but I haven’t cut the bevel yet. At this point I can make them any depth required. This dimension has eluded me for several months until this topic surfaced again. So thanks to all for the assistance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rustred Posted January 7, 2022 Share Posted January 7, 2022 9 hours ago, Binderoid said: Yes the seats are in but I haven’t cut the bevel yet. At this point I can make them any depth required. This dimension has eluded me for several months until this topic surfaced again. So thanks to all for the assistance. i would keep them at the upper end of the spec so you have some material left for the next grind. but not so high as the pistons might smack them. you couls stick some putty on the piston , then with gasket and head on have a better idea of what clearance is left. there is not much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1958560 Posted January 8, 2022 Share Posted January 8, 2022 The 560s I've worked on get the valves done so standout is close to the .003 end. If you're using the tractor in cold weather, it really helps starting. As the valves wear, the spec gets less. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
louie figone Posted January 8, 2022 Share Posted January 8, 2022 On 1/6/2022 at 7:50 PM, FarmerFixEmUp said: valve recession is -.003 to -.046. That number does not seem right, my IH Engine service manual (ISS-1040-1) calls out "Maximum allowable recession, inch Valve protrusion from face of the cylinder head, inch.......033 - .046. This is for both the intake and exhaust on the D236, D282 and D301 engines. This is from the face of the cylinder head. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rustred Posted January 8, 2022 Share Posted January 8, 2022 41 minutes ago, louie figone said: That number does not seem right, my IH Engine service manual (ISS-1040-1) calls out "Maximum allowable recession, inch Valve protrusion from face of the cylinder head, inch.......033 - .046. This is for both the intake and exhaust on the D236, D282 and D301 engines. This is from the face of the cylinder head. now that makes more sense. that .003 you would be getting in trouble . at .033 -.046 i like way better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FarmerFixEmUp Posted January 8, 2022 Share Posted January 8, 2022 Just copied what I read. Earlier manual here I guess. I have a 560 diesel head here back from the machine shop. With new intake valves they measure about .020" Exhaust about .025" 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Binderoid Posted January 8, 2022 Share Posted January 8, 2022 9 hours ago, 1958560 said: The 560s I've worked on get the valves done so standout is close to the .003 end. If you're using the tractor in cold weather, it really helps starting. As the valves wear, the spec gets less. It helps with starting? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FarmerFixEmUp Posted January 8, 2022 Share Posted January 8, 2022 35 minutes ago, Binderoid said: It helps with starting? More compression helps for starting. Especially on glow plug indirect injection engines. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Binderoid Posted January 9, 2022 Share Posted January 9, 2022 2 hours ago, FarmerFixEmUp said: More compression helps for starting. Especially on glow plug indirect injection engines. How much pressure would be added, like in the above case, with the valve at .020 recession? ( assuming we start at .046”) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1958560 Posted January 9, 2022 Share Posted January 9, 2022 18 hours ago, Binderoid said: How much pressure would be added, like in the above case, with the valve at .020 recession? ( assuming we start at .046”) Not sure how much compression is added, but sure can tell difference after head rebuild. Been a few years since I had one off, but I was thinking that exhaust valves actually had a positive dimension? They needed to be removed to plane the head iirc, or am I confusing the 282 with something else? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rustred Posted January 9, 2022 Share Posted January 9, 2022 17 minutes ago, 1958560 said: Not sure how much compression is added, but sure can tell difference after head rebuild. Been a few years since I had one off, but I was thinking that exhaust valves actually had a positive dimension? They needed to be removed to plane the head iirc, or am I confusing the 282 with something else? positive or not ,... valves are out of the head when resurfacing heads. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
louie figone Posted January 10, 2022 Share Posted January 10, 2022 On 1/8/2022 at 5:06 AM, 1958560 said: The 560s I've worked on get the valves done so standout is close to the .003 end. If you're using the tractor in cold weather, it really helps starting. As the valves wear, the spec gets less. Doesn't the number get more as the valves would recess into the head as they wear. That number, .033-.046 is maximum recession. I would think you would want to be at around .010 or less recession when the valves are redone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snoshoe Posted January 10, 2022 Share Posted January 10, 2022 1 hour ago, louie figone said: Doesn't the number get more as the valves would recess into the head as they wear. That number, .033-.046 is maximum recession. I would think you would want to be at around .010 or less recession when the valves are redone. The spec in the book is what was acceptable on a new engine. Maximum recession was .060 or .062. I don't remember which. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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