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TDC5 Skidder hard starting


Old iron
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Hi guys looking for some advice, I have replaced the injectors, had injector pump rebuilt,new glow plugs, cleaned out fuel system, changed filters and slightly adjusted timing on the injector pump which did help starting somewhat, with the colder temperatures it seems like I really have turn it over a lot before she starts and runs. I usually hit the glow plugs till the dash indicator is glowing nicely and I will have to crank for almost a full minute before it starts and runs well, I keep the glow plugs on till she evens out.The battery is new as well, its a group 31, 1100 CCA. I have read that these engines were decent starters in cold weather, when it gets below freezing I plug in the block heater for an hour or so before I try starting as well. Once running it hardly smokes and seems to work well. Any ideas would be appreciated. Thanks Gerald

 

 

 

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I've had the block heaters on both my -14 & -14A for two days at zero deg. fahrenheit (and below). Neither one will start, I believe because the oil is too thick.  Tomorrow I'll put a 40,000 BTU heater under the pan of one of them for half a day and then try & start it.

Vic

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On 12/29/2021 at 2:14 PM, thebunns said:

I've had the block heaters on both my -14 & -14A for two days at zero deg. fahrenheit (and below). Neither one will start, I believe because the oil is too thick.  Tomorrow I'll put a 40,000 BTU heater under the pan of one of them for half a day and then try & start it.

Vic

It worked!  I did add a heat rod in the dip stick hole along with the propane heater.  After all that I cranked on the motor for about 20 minutes before it continued to run.

Vic

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I don’t know what engine it has in it. It would probably be worth posting about the engine in the Technical IH talk. If it’s very old and you can get it started at all in the weather most of us are experiencing right now, then that’s a success. 

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I have a sixty year old 301D in a 150B loader. I run 15-40 Rotela and I hold my glow plugs on for 60 full seconds in freezing weather 90 seconds in single digits. It starts in a few seconds after I start cranking then I release glow plugs.

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On 1/1/2022 at 9:41 PM, Dirt_Floor_Poor said:

I don’t know what engine it has in it. It would probably be worth posting about the engine in the Technical IH talk. If it’s very old and you can get it started at all in the weather most of us are experiencing right now, then that’s a success. 

It is a BD154T

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I put two 1100 batteries and throw the charger on them in cold weather these diesels have to spin fast to start  might be a sluggish starter.

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It is a 1965ish, it doesn't use hardly any oil, might have to add a liter in between oil changes, no hour meter so unsure on hours, doesn't smoke either, was thinking about refreshing the starter, was just hoping there was maybe some tuning tips I should be doing. Any time the temp gets below freezing it becomes a bear to start. Keep any ideas coming. Thanks Gerald

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I saw in the beginning you put in new glow plugs...are you sure they are working. The wires going to mine get quite hot when engaged so I would think you could check that easy enough

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On 1/1/2022 at 6:41 PM, Dirt_Floor_Poor said:

I don’t know what engine it has in it. It would probably be worth posting about the engine in the Technical IH talk. If it’s very old and you can get it started at all in the weather most of us are experiencing right now, then that’s a success. 

I agree!  Just for laughs, I tried starting my little 2 cylinder Chinese Rhino at 0 deg. (18 deg. C).  One quick shot of engine starter (ether) & it started immediately.

Vic

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If you have to crank it for a minute before anything happens, it sounds like you have a fuel drain-back problem, and / or air leak . With toasty pre-chambers a BD-154 should start firing immediately at starter engagement and be running within a couple revolutions. Especially since you did all that fuel system work. Low compression could be a possibility, but is easier to first recheck your work maybe you left a copper washer out or something. Air entering anywhere, including the return circuit, can cause the symptoms you describe.

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Some tractor owners that have the British BD-154 Diesel engine in them have replaced the glow plugs with a new fast heat 12V glow plug used in the newer Mercedes cars.
These new glow plugs really improve the cold winter starting of these BD-154 engines.

See this info from another tractor forum from a few years ago: Prices have gone up since the original reply was posted.

The IH B414 uses the exact same glow plugs as a Mercedes 190D car. There are complete "fast heat" glow plug upgrade kits sold now for the Mercedes that direct fit the IH B-275 and B-414. No need for any adapters. Kit comes with four 12 volt plugs that get wired in parallel instead of series - and a controller.
Complete kit with four fast heat plugs, new wires, relay, controller, etc. is $144. Here's the parts list:

The complete conversion kit includes the following

* Heavy Duty Manual Relay
* Quality push button hole mount switch
* Mercedes factory 80 amp fuse holder
* 2 - 80 amp strip fuses
* Correct size and length of wire needed
* All terminal connectors required
* 4 Upgraded Pencil type Fast Glow Plugs
* Three New Glow Plug Wires
* Complete step-by-step illustrated instructions

http://www.mercedessource.com/node/8320 -- This link still works but price is now $178.50

You can by the kit without the controller for $80 - $120. Here is one on Ebay -but I'm sure you can find cheaper elsewhere . . .

http://www.ebay.com/itm/MERCEDES-QUICK-FAST-GLOW-PLUG-KIT-190D-200D-220D-240D-/190579548413 - No longer works.

And you could also just buy four plugs for $15 each and figure out the rest yourself. 


If you order any Mercedes kits - make sure you verify the have the 18 mm glow plugs and not the newer smaller ones.
The correct fast-heat Bosch Duratherm plug to fit your B-414 is Bosch # 0250201044. Threads are 18 mm X 1.5 - just like your originals. Work at full 12 volts and draw 20 amps each when cold and taper to 8 amps each when hot.

You can buy just the plugs at $16 each at Amazon.com and several other places.

http://www.amazon.com/Bosch-0250201044-Glow-Plug-Fast/dp/B000GTNFWK
 

 

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16 hours ago, Binderoid said:

If you have to crank it for a minute before anything happens, it sounds like you have a fuel drain-back problem, and / or air leak . With toasty pre-chambers a BD-154 should start firing immediately at starter engagement and be running within a couple revolutions. Especially since you did all that fuel system work. Low compression could be a possibility, but is easier to first recheck your work maybe you left a copper washer out or something. Air entering anywhere, including the return circuit, can cause the symptoms you describe.

I agree binderoid. Sounds like air getting into the fuel system. I am chasing the same issue with the bd154t i transplanted into my b414.  

I have to mannually prime it and even then it can take 30 seconds of cranking before i even get a puff of smoke.  I cant find the slow leak. If i use the tractor every day i have no starting issues . If it sits over a week its long and hard to start. 

 

One thing i did thar help alot regarless of my fuel leak issue was replacing the battery cables to 0 gauge.  I since changed the 1100cca battery to a much smaller 660 cca and i have a nice fast starter even with the mich smaller battery all the way upto -20c .

 

Al

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4 hours ago, Power of Red said:

I agree binderoid. Sounds like air getting into the fuel system. I am chasing the same issue with the bd154t i transplanted into my b414.  

I have to mannually prime it and even then it can take 30 seconds of cranking before i even get a puff of smoke.  I cant find the slow leak. If i use the tractor every day i have no starting issues . If it sits over a week its long and hard to start. 

 

One thing i did thar help alot regarless of my fuel leak issue was replacing the battery cables to 0 gauge.  I since changed the 1100cca battery to a much smaller 660 cca and i have a nice fast starter even with the mich smaller battery all the way upto -20c .

 

Al

Those are hard to find. When not in freezing weather, I’d pressure wash the engine, then wash down the fuel system with gunk or purple power. The key here is to get the system shiny bright and dry. Then, if the defective part weeps fuel after the system becomes air locked, it will be easier to see. Pay close attention to solder joints on the banjos,  for hairline fractures. When the leaks are this minute, they can be controlled by heat / expansion, so you will have to inspect the engine both hot and cold.

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Thanks for all the input guys, the battery cables have been replaced with 2/0 cables, machine is clean I pressure washed it before I took the injection pump off, I have checked many times for any weeping or leaks, if it was leaking air/fuel wouldn't it be hard to start when it's warmer out, it has always started well when it's warmer, just hard when it's about freezing or colder,how long do you guys let the glow plugs glow once they are red, I generally try to start it after they have been glowing red for about 10 seconds, it takes about 50 to 60 seconds for them to start glowing red. Thanks Gerald

 

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1 hour ago, Old iron said:

Thanks for all the input guys, the battery cables have been replaced with 2/0 cables, machine is clean I pressure washed it before I took the injection pump off, I have checked many times for any weeping or leaks, if it was leaking air/fuel wouldn't it be hard to start when it's warmer out, it has always started well when it's warmer, just hard when it's about freezing or colder,how long do you guys let the glow plugs glow once they are red, I generally try to start it after they have been glowing red for about 10 seconds, it takes about 50 to 60 seconds for them to start glowing red. Thanks Gerald

 

Well if it starts ok in warm weather I’m less inclined to think you’re getting air locks. Try longer glow time. You’re at 1:10 now? Try 2 minutes or even three. If you are using 12V glow plugs in a 12V system, you’re not going to burn them out. Remember that the pre-chamber is going to absorb a certain amount of heat in the beginning, it’s going to need more initial heat if the compression is down. 

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Wow you guys hold the plugs for a long time. I hold them about 10-15 seconds before cranking and then hold an additional 10-15 seconds if needed while cranking until 3-4 cylinders are fireing. 

 

 

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18 hours ago, Old iron said:

,how long do you guys let the glow plugs glow once they are red,

Plugs 60 sec. starter motor 2-3 seconds and it is running, might hold plugs for 4-5 sec more if its rough running........... I have never cranked my starter motor for more than a few seconds at a time on any engine

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1 hour ago, just Dave said:

Plugs 60 sec. starter motor 2-3 seconds and it is running, might hold plugs for 4-5 sec more if its rough running........... I have never cranked my starter motor for more than a few seconds at a time on any engine

I usually don't either, typically there is something wrong if it doesn't start within a couple revolutions which is what I'm trying to figure out, if I give it a shot of ether it starts right up.

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5 hours ago, Power of Red said:

Wow you guys hold the plugs for a long time. I hold them about 10-15 seconds before cranking and then hold an additional 10-15 seconds if needed while cranking until 3-4 cylinders are fireing. 

 

 

There is a indicator on the dash that I go by.

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14 hours ago, just Dave said:

Plugs 60 sec. starter motor 2-3 seconds and it is running, might hold plugs for 4-5 sec more if its rough running........... I have never cranked my starter motor for more than a few seconds at a time on any engine

You are lucky then. You obviously are not trying to start a German diesel. My experience is they need to crank more than a few seconds. Then again, none of my equipment has the luxury of glow plugs. 

Mark

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