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International 404 Restore - Help with power beyond and correcting years of hydraulic spaghetti


Luke4554
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Ive owned this International 404 for about 4 years.  Its my first tractor and its been a great help around my 5 acre lot.  Its gone through many phases prior to me with previous owners and "mechanics", including a full cab of some sort, a brush and front plow at one time, etc.  Since taking ownership of the tractor I've accumulated many 3pt attachments in the time I've had it and always find a reason to be on it.  I've had a IH 2001 purchased for it that has been sitting behind my barn up until last year when I finally scored the last of the brackets I was missing for it.  I only plan to move mulch around and do light duty bucket work (lifting heavy crap off a trailer, maybe fork lift forks for moving pallets in my shop etc) Unfortunately someone years ago went yellow spray paint crazy and totally wrecked what should have been a nice machine with a fake industrial paint job.. and last year when my radiator let go I figured it was time to blow it apart and get it back to its old glory.  In doing so Ive decided to clean up the added remote hydraulic lines and correct some of the plumbing so i can continue to use the tractor for years to come.  When i got the tractor it had a double spool valve mounted to the side of it up near the steering wheel. The previous owners were using it for front mounted attachments and thus the hoses were super long and always coiled around it.  Ive cleaned up the valve and want to build a bracket for it to mount directly to the 2001 framework and leave it attached to the loader incase it gets removed down the road.  The previous owners had fed that dual spool valve from the lead port on the case mounted control valve to the right of the seat.  In doing so they plugged the rear port of the case mounted valve and plumbed a return directly into the top of the tank behind the shifter to return the fluid faster (im assuming for the brush that used to be up front).  Everything works as long as the case mounted valve is in the correct position.. but i dont love having it this way and i also want to put a dedicated set of remotes to the rear of the tractor for 3 point implements without having to remove lines going to the loader everytime once its mounted up.  Initially i was going to buy another single spool and use the power beyond port on the dual spool loader valve i have and run them together that way.. but the more i thought about it the more i though it would make more sense to use the case mounted control valve to control the 3pt remotes and use a power beyond plate on that valve to feed the loader valve.  Seemed silly to buy another valve when i could just plumb the IH valve correctly and have a much cleaner setup that works as it should.  As i understand it i am fortunate to have one of the open on both sides valves and the early design with the 3 bolt case cover. The rear fenders and loader arm assembly wont be going on until spring so for now i want to get the loader valve mounted on the 2001 sub frame and get everything plumbed correctly so i can use my rear remotes for the tilt cylinder i put together for my 3pt blade for snow removal this winter at least.

 

Ive seen three different power beyond plate styles in researching.  The style like the 504 had available to them (470 603 r1), the cast covers that have two ports near the top side, and the bates corp style machined plates that have two threaded holes.  Im not particular to any one style if they will all do the same thing, however i my drawn photo depicts the IH 470603r1 style.  I am a machinist/fabricator by trade so i have the ability to make my own block and the o-ring grooves as well so i will probably just make my own.   That said i think i know what i need to do.. I just want some clarification/confirmation that im not wrong or going to screw something up.  Ive included photos of the current setup some showing the actual IH casting numbers for reference.. as well as the proposed changes.  Ive also attached some photos of the tractors progression from the yellow turd it was to where it is today.  Im restoring the loader as well (rustoleum rebuilds) so i want to get the hoses right before its all said and done so i dont have to think about it anymore. 

 

Does anyone see anything im missing with my proposed setup?  I can run 3 point remotes using the valve on the tractor correct?

 

Thank you for all/any help. I tried to research as much as i could on options and part numbers and i just want to double check before i dive in to something and burn out my pump or something like that accidently because i did it wrong and missed a step.

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606 diesel,

 

One question i did have was, if i machine one of the power beyond plates like the one ive attached a picture of, do i need to put a service loop between both ports when its not in use?  Ive noticed that the case covers 376023R3 like i have with the buldge have a passage on the backside of the buldge that connects the two ports in a loop.  My plan would be to put quick connect fittings on each port so they will be closed when hoses are pulled (incase i remove the loader), but it had me wondering.. if i ever do have it in that configuration.. should i make a small hose up with a quick connector on each end to plug into each fitting to give it back that service loop?  Im assuming most people leave the attachment connected once they have theirs set up and i will most likely do the same but in the event the loader comes off for a period of time i want to ensure im not messing anything up in the process.

Luke

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On 12/3/2021 at 5:00 PM, Luke4554 said:

606 diesel,

 

One question i did have was, if i machine one of the power beyond plates like the one ive attached a picture of, do i need to put a service loop between both ports when its not in use?  Ive noticed that the case covers 376023R3 like i have with the buldge have a passage on the backside of the buldge that connects the two ports in a loop.  My plan would be to put quick connect fittings on each port so they will be closed when hoses are pulled (incase i remove the loader), but it had me wondering.. if i ever do have it in that configuration.. should i make a small hose up with a quick connector on each end to plug into each fitting to give it back that service loop?  Im assuming most people leave the attachment connected once they have theirs set up and i will most likely do the same but in the event the loader comes off for a period of time i want to ensure im not messing anything up in the process.

Luke

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I believe that you WILL have to use a loop system if you remove the hoses to and from a power beyond plate as in the picture above. If you have quick disconnect couplers installed in the ports of the power beyond plate (above) and you disconnected the hoses from them, then oil will have nowhere to go.  Same thing if you just screwed hoses directly into the ports and then removed them and installed plugs into them.  It will no longer be an open center valve. It will be closed center and something has got to give, your pump or hydraulic lines somewhere will break. In your proposed setup diagram instead of return oil to the tank why not back to the power beyond on the tractor valve? The power beyond that you pictured has flow out and flow return ports.

In your picture showing the 376023 R23 cover on your tractor mounted valve, the "bulge" has a passageway for oil to continuously flow through making the system an open center flow.  That cover plate was used in early production, of that era, IH tractors when all auxiliary valves were "open both sides" before they started using the "closed on one side" auxiliary valve. Closed on one side valves have an internal passageway for open center flow , therefore no need for the external plate to be bolted on. 

Below is a diagram from my loader operator's manual showing plumbing to a double valve mounted on the loader. The oil supply is from a "transfer block" mounted on the tractor in lieu of the tractor having an auxiliary valve. The transfer block has a cover on it to which a hose is attached and routes oil flow to the valve bodies and then oil is returned to a port in the rear of the transfer block. 

My International 504 has a transfer block and two auxiliary valves pictures below   

   

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2 hours ago, 7and8and1456 said:

In your proposed setup diagram instead of return oil to the tank why not back to the power beyond on the tractor valve? The power beyond that you pictured has flow out and flow return ports.

i agree and most likely will route that way. My proposed drawing was when I thought I needed one of the IH 470603R1 covers.

But I agree, using one of the 1” machined plate style power beyond plates I would return back to the power beyond plate.

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My 404-u has 2 valves to the right of the seat that ran the loader when I got it. Worked o.k. til you lifted the bucket and tried to back up!! LOL!! ---At that point the loader came off since I didnt want it anyway and went down the road. still have 2 of them in the weeds on 2504 tractors.

Around here I only use skidloaders!

You can put 2 valves by the seat to operate the loader and it works just fine. The 2 loaders on the 2504's have the valves mounted up on the loaders themselves.

Neat little tractors for sure! Excellent for 72" tiller in the gardens.

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Only issue I see with your plan is the current valve on the 404 being a one-way valve. That means there would be nothing behind that plug, no pressure.

Does the tractor grunt and squeal when you push the lever the opposite direction? If not then it's a one-way valve

I apologize I did not read the whole post, as it was very long and you may have already addressed this.

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On 12/6/2021 at 9:08 AM, Matt Kirsch said:

Only issue I see with your plan is the current valve on the 404 being a one-way valve. That means there would be nothing behind that plug, no pressure.

Does the tractor grunt and squeal when you push the lever the opposite direction? If not then it's a one-way valve

I apologize I did not read the whole post, as it was very long and you may have already addressed this.

Its been since last year when i had the snow blade on since ive used anything hydraulic on the tractor so i cant remember.  During this time that hose on the front port of my IH valve was my hydraulic feed to the dual spool valve (which was premounted and not attached to anything, no loader or front mount attachments.. etc) so since i had both spool valves on that valve body free to use i pulled one set of hoses from that dual spool valve to the rear of the tractor was using that particular half to control my rear remotes (side to side blade tilt).  I feel like in order to make that dual spool valve work at the time.. i needed to push the side seat mounted IH valve forward to the front detent then sending fluid to the dual valve, but i cant remember how it reacted if it was pulled rearward.

My assumption was that that plug was closing off the natural return passage in the IH valve since they werent using it on their prior application and had re-routed their return direct to the top of the tank.

Can you not use those IH valves as a single spool control valve to use for remotes by attaching hoses to the underside to both the spot where the existing hose is (that they were using as the loader valve feed) and the spot where they have plugged?   Or is it not that simple?  Ive looked around at alot of google images of this tractor to see if i can identify the factory hard line routing but being that its inside of a fender normally, there arent many good photos to go off of.

 

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Im hoping i can just turn the hose in the picture to the rear to act as a supply remote and add hose to where the lower plug is to the as the return. 

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The valve on your 404 is nothing special . It is the common IH built valve that was on hundreds of thousands of IH tractors of that era . They were ALL single spool valves that had capability to send oil in two different directions such as would be needed to operate a hydraulic cylinder. Move valve lever one direction to extend hydraulic cylinder. While valve is sending oil out one port to a double acting hydraulic cylinder, oil is returning from the cylinder through the other port.   Move it the other way to retract hydraulic cylinder and oil flow direction is now reversed. The valve had the same function if used on a SINGLE action hydraulic cylinder ( a cylinder with only one hose to it, pressure up , gravity down, just move the valve lever one way for pressure up to extend the cylinder and lift the load, the other direction for gravity down to retract the cylinder). 

Below is diagram from my 504 parts book showing valves and lines attached to them and hydraulic line quick couplers.  My 504 has factory steel tubing with "banjo" style connections to the valves. banjo connections allow one valve to supply oil to quick couplers to the rear and front of the tractor. When equipped as such, only the front set or the rear set can be used at any one time. For instance the front set supplies oil to a front loader lift cylinders. When fronts are in use for a loader the rear set on the same valve CAN NOT be used for a cylinder on a trailing piece of equipment. To use the rear set , the front loader hoses must be disconnected from the quick couplers. Can't use both sets of couplers on the one valve at the same time!      

 

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15 hours ago, Luke4554 said:

Can you not use those IH valves as a single spool control valve to use for remotes by attaching hoses to the underside to both the spot where the existing hose is (that they were using as the loader valve feed) and the spot where they have plugged? 

That's exactly what they are for. They are single spool control valves.

On a normal two-way spool, though, both ports are open. One is pressure raise, the other is pressure lower. Each acts as the other's return, depending on which way you pull the lever.

My concern is that plug. Why is it plugged? It should have a hose or a steel line running to the front or rear of the tractor. The plug looks factory. My experience with spool valves with factory plugs in one of the "work ports" like that is that the valve is one-way. 100% of the time. Never found a bonus two-way valve under the plug.

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33 minutes ago, Matt Kirsch said:

My concern is that plug. Why is it plugged? It should have a hose or a steel line running to the front or rear of the tractor. The plug looks factory. My experience with spool valves with factory plugs in one of the "work ports" like that is that the valve is one-way. 100% of the time. Never found a bonus two-way valve under the plug.

It’s plugged because the PO dumped the return to the top of the trans case directly to run one of the implements they had up front. That’s my understanding 

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"Ive looked around at alot of google images of this tractor to see if i can identify the factory hard line routing but being that its inside of a fender normally, there arent many good photos to go off of." 

here is link to Messicks website which has IH parts diagram for 404 hydraulic valve and manifold tubes .

https://www.messicks.com/commoncatalog?vendor=cas&modelId=142434

click on hydraulic system then scroll down to #120..hydraulic valve and manifold tubes .

It is quite similar to diagram of 504 which I posted up the page.

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48 minutes ago, 7and8and1456 said:

"Ive looked around at alot of google images of this tractor to see if i can identify the factory hard line routing but being that its inside of a fender normally, there arent many good photos to go off of." 

here is link to Messicks website which has IH parts diagram for 404 hydraulic valve and manifold tubes .

https://www.messicks.com/commoncatalog?vendor=cas&modelId=142434

click on hydraulic system then scroll down to #120..hydraulic valve and manifold tubes .

It is quite similar to diagram of 504 which I posted up the page.

Thanks ive seen that photo as well and at this point im convinced i should be fine. I found that page in the parts catalog i have .. the only discrepancy i can see is that the valve in that parts explosion (Part #14 on the diagram) revers to IH valve #383267R92 .. which is a later model control valve than mine.  Nonetheless im pretty confident that the diagram would be the same with the older valve and the parts diagram was just updated throughout the years.  And it seems that diagram should be evidence enough for me to move forward.

Ill report back on what i find.  If anyone has any last minute "hold on a second" comments feel free to post them because id rather be informed than bullheaded.

 

Thanks for the help!

Luke

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