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Did Farmall "H's" and "M's" Live PTO and Live Hydraulics When They Left The Factory?


Art From Coleman
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I believe the SMTA was the first with live PTO. The Super A and C had live hydraulics in 1947 then the stage two SH and SM in 1953. Not sure if there were any factory options earlier than that.

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Only transmission driven PTO.  Engine driven hydraulic pumps were available on SH and SM after a serial number break but not at start of production. 6 and 4 series tractors with same engines as a H or M had the option of a engine driven hydraulic pump sometime in 1950 I think.

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18 hours ago, Art From Coleman said:

Or did those come with the introduction of the Super H and Super M?

 

TIA

Art

live PTO was designed by Cockshutt and introduced in 1946 on the Cockshutt 30 about half way through the H and M production. When IH got around to building their LPTO IMHO it was superior

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39 minutes ago, hillman said:

live PTO was designed by Cockshutt and introduced in 1946 on the Cockshutt 30 about half way through the H and M production. When IH got around to building their LPTO IMHO it was superior

Actually, if you look thru C.H. Wendell's 150 Years of IHC there's a picture of a 10-20 or 15-30 I think it was that had the earliest power take-off for running trailing equipment.  I can't remember if He mentioned it being " live" but it was driven from the front of the engine and a shaft ran to the back of the tractor so it probably was live.  This was decades before industry standards on rpm and shaft orientation and location came about.

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6 hours ago, RAH said:

Late 53 m could have had both live hydraulics  and also live pto. 
second series super h had live hydraulics but never had live pto. 

If you mean 53 SM, yes they could have engine driven hydraulics or live as most say. But never anything but transmission driven PTO. Stage 2 SM farmall works tractors built in early 54 only had a regular PTO.  SMTA  started the IPTO in 54.  IH did build a experimental M called M-8 designed for IPTO in 48 I think. 

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IMO! Very little of mechanicals of this era  were invented, they simply evolved as engineering changes.  Many areas where patents were allowed were not anything new. The last invention was a flat rock, beat into into a wheel. Since then, just evolution has occurred!

 

 

 

 

 

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The earliest IHC PTO was on the 8-16 Kerosene tractor to drive the McCormick Tractor grain binder (the one with the caster-like wheels at the back).  The next generation of tractor grain binders had a large wheel under the elevators and a small one at the end of the platform similar to those found in the conventional horse drawn binders.  The 10-20 and 15-30 PTOs were driven off the rear of the belt-pulley drive with the(on the 10-20) 1 inch diameter left-hand threaded PTO shaft below the seat alongside the tool-box (if no PTO a domed cover was fitted and the shaft and rear shaft bearing were absent). It certainly was not live, if one used the clutch, all stopped (tractor, belt-pulley and PTO).

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Hart Parr offered a live pto on 18-36 in the late 20s and unlike IH’s contraption, a few were actually sold.  If you are talking the first successful live pto that forced everybody to come up with their own, that trophy goes to Cockshutt.  Period 

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The Hart-Parr had a clutch pto driven from the RH crankshaft, so live, that was an (after the fact) arrangment, easiest way to add PTO, after others already had a PTO. I'm, thinking Oliver had a good clutch PTO in 1948? the Cockshut was like an attachment piggy back on the engine clutch, still live though, with its own clutch.  Seems like the  SC & DC Case also had live PTO,& 2way hydraulics & 3 pt hitch, draft links had a Quick attach in  1952, VAC some years earlier.  I belive SM in 1954 had Fasthitch, live PTO, 2 way hydraulics, & TA.

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 its been said Cyrus McCormick did not invent the reaper as it was not entirely his idea but he invented the one that worked and was commercially a success. I always understood IH "invented the pto" on the Mogel 6-18 and Cockshutt "invented" the first commercially successful-workable-useable LPTO. Oliver was very fast to follow. if I had to choose between LPTO and 3 pth I would take the live shaft everyday of the week

 

driving the LPTO off the pressure plate with its own clutch is the way to go👍

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2 hours ago, hillman said:

 its been said Cyrus McCormick did not invent the reaper as it was not entirely his idea but he invented the one that worked and was commercially a success. I always understood IH "invented the pto" on the Mogel 6-18 and Cockshutt "invented" the first commercially successful-workable-useable LPTO. Oliver was very fast to follow. if I had to choose between LPTO and 3 pth I would take the live shaft everyday of the week

 

driving the LPTO off the pressure plate with its own clutch is the way to go👍

X2

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9 hours ago, Fred B said:

The Hart-Parr had a clutch pto driven from the RH crankshaft, so live, that was an (after the fact) arrangment, easiest way to add PTO, after others already had a PTO. I'm, thinking Oliver had a good clutch PTO in 1948? the Cockshut was like an attachment piggy back on the engine clutch, still live though, with its own clutch.  Seems like the  SC & DC Case also had live PTO,& 2way hydraulics & 3 pt hitch, draft links had a Quick attach in  1952, VAC some years earlier.  I belive SM in 1954 had Fasthitch, live PTO, 2 way hydraulics, & TA.

The Super M in 1954 was available with TA, live PTO and 2 way valve for the hydraulic system.   However,  the fast hitch was introduced with the 300 and 400 series tractors. 

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In the latest Red Power magazine there is an article by Bermuda Ken about this subject.

DWF

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6 minutes ago, Big Bud guy said:

Whats the difference?  Both mean the same to me.

A live PTO would be like is on some MF tractors,  you have to stop the tractor to engage the PTO, but then the tractor's forward motion can be stopped and the PTO will continue to run...MF uses a two stage clutch to accomplish this.

 

An Independent PTO has it's own clutch ........Like an IH 400 or 560 .....you don't have to stop the forward motion of the tractor to engage the PTO ...... just engage the PTO clutch and the PTO will start.

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30 minutes ago, Mark (EC,IN) said:

A live PTO would be like is on some MF tractors,  you have to stop the tractor to engage the PTO, but then the tractor's forward motion can be stopped and the PTO will continue to run...MF uses a two stage clutch to accomplish this.

 

An Independent PTO has it's own clutch ........Like an IH 400 or 560 .....you don't have to stop the forward motion of the tractor to engage the PTO ...... just engage the PTO clutch and the PTO will start.

 

67DC148E-AE21-44A9-972D-66BE3640D0F4.jpeg
 

That’s what I thought.  According to this Cockshutt used a separate clutch off the flywheel so I’m betting it’s independent.  Problem is though they called it “live pto” while you call it independent.  That’s why it can get confusing and that’s why I have called them the same thing more or less.  We have JD 790 compact tractor that functions like your Massey

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