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1978 Ih 686 d312 gear drive starter questions


IHFAN21

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Okay so I have a 686 d312 gear drive. Well I bought a reman starter for it well it just grinds I took the drive off the old starter and swapped it still just grinds. They are both 10 teeth. I’ve checked ring gear it’s fine. I know that the 666 are mostly the same tractor as the 686 but my research shows they use a 12 teeth starter. My question is why is it just grinding, should I buy a 12 teeth starter like a 666. I wonder if the guy before me had the same problems and didn’t count the teeth and stuck a 10 on it. Just need to get this figured out. I’ve never seen it work. I can say that every once an again it’ll catch and start to crank but then just grinds. 
All help is greatly appreciated. 
 

Thanks, Sawyer

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Was the old starter grinding?  Sounds like you just acquired this tractor is that correct? From what I can see the original drive number was 1877347 which seems to be a 10 tooth gear. It really sounds like the drive is bad on the reman starter but hard to hear from this distance😲 or there is an issue with the ring gear that you are missing. Have you tried the starter on a bench to see how far the drive is being thrown forward, should come out almost to touching the nose. Have you tried turning the gear on the drive by hand? Sound click going one direction and lock up solid the other, if it takes a bit to lock up or does not lock up than that would be your issue.

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The last 5-10 years I worked. Had a number of rebuilt Delcos that armature hole in nose cone was to low. Loosen mounting bolts. Stick a flat washer between starter and bell housing next to top bolt. Just snug mounting bolts. If it works now. Take it back and tell them what is wrong.

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There is a difference between gear drive and Hydro starters. and I think the re builders loose track of that,.

the difference is the location of the bushing in the nose cone, There is probably a difference in a casting number as well.

I do know that twice I have helped people solve this problem by getting the correct starter.  hydro starter will look very similar but will NOT work

The first time I ran into it took a while to figure it out.   If all else fails, Find a gear drive starter at a salvage yard and test it then get it rebuilt. That 666 w312 starter should work because a 312 runs same flywheel and ring gear in either tractor you mentioned as long as its a gear drive

Another clue, if I remember correctly is that the hydro starter may have a flat spot on the bottom of the armature case, gear drive will be round. (if i remember correctly)

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12 hours ago, Ed Leaman said:

There is a difference between gear drive and Hydro starters. and I think the re builders loose track of that,.

the difference is the location of the bushing in the nose cone, There is probably a difference in a casting number as well.

I do know that twice I have helped people solve this problem by getting the correct starter.  hydro starter will look very similar but will NOT work

The first time I ran into it took a while to figure it out.   If all else fails, Find a gear drive starter at a salvage yard and test it then get it rebuilt. That 666 w312 starter should work because a 312 runs same flywheel and ring gear in either tractor you mentioned as long as its a gear drive

Another clue, if I remember correctly is that the hydro starter may have a flat spot on the bottom of the armature case, gear drive will be round. (if i remember correctly)

Yes your right on the case, mine is round like you said so I would think it would be right. From my research it shows the 666 gear drive with d312 uses a 12 tooth starter ccw(correct me if I’m wrong). You said they use same fly wheel and ring gear as a 686 w312 so should I buy a reman for a 666 gear drive and try it. Does the  666 and 686 have the same starter mounting? 

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2 hours ago, IHFAN21 said:

Yes your right on the case, mine is round like you said so I would think it would be right. From my research it shows the 666 gear drive with d312 uses a 12 tooth starter ccw(correct me if I’m wrong). You said they use same fly wheel and ring gear as a 686 w312 so should I buy a reman for a 666 gear drive and try it. Does the  666 and 686 have the same starter mounting? 

Yes, they are the same. The 666 and 686 gear drive with the 312 are the same machine with different decals for the model number. The later 686 had the 310 german diesel and a few different parts as a result. 

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13 minutes ago, nepoweshiekfarmalls said:

Yes, they are the same. The 666 and 686 gear drive with the 312 are the same machine with different decals for the model number. The later 686 had the 310 german diesel and a few different parts as a result. 

Okay so if I buy a starter for a 666 gear drive it will work? Only reason I’m questioning it is because it’s 12 teeth but it might work better than original.  

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It might help you in your research if you would go to Messicks.com and look at the on line parts books. I did a little more researching this morning using a 686 and a Hydro 70 tractor. It looked to me like both tractors used the same starter which was a Delco 1109360. The drive which is listed as 10 tooth is used on all the following tractors 656, 666, 686, 706, 756, 766, H70, H86, and H100. Probably more but as you can see a very common drive to IH. One possibility that is kicking around in my head this morning is the possibility that the starter is turning the wrong direction. For instance a Hydro 84 the starter mounts on the engine side of the flywheel so it would have to turn opposite direction of a starter that mounts on the transmission side of a flywheel as the engines all turn the same direction. So that would be something to check on a bench test. Since it is a rebuilt starter who really knows what is inside it. Has this tractor ever cranked that you know of with either the original starter that was on it when you got it or with the rebuilt one you put on? If not and the starter is turning the correct direction to crank the engine and the drive locks the one direction and clicks the other than I would be looking for another issue. Have you turned the engine crank to different locations and than tried starting? There will be 3 locations on the starter ring that will have more wear and maybe it is really worst than what it appears through the starter hole. Just different possibilities causing your issues. 

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59 minutes ago, IHC_1470 said:

It might help you in your research if you would go to Messicks.com and look at the on line parts books. I did a little more researching this morning using a 686 and a Hydro 70 tractor. It looked to me like both tractors used the same starter which was a Delco 1109360. The drive which is listed as 10 tooth is used on all the following tractors 656, 666, 686, 706, 756, 766, H70, H86, and H100. Probably more but as you can see a very common drive to IH. One possibility that is kicking around in my head this morning is the possibility that the starter is turning the wrong direction. For instance a Hydro 84 the starter mounts on the engine side of the flywheel so it would have to turn opposite direction of a starter that mounts on the transmission side of a flywheel as the engines all turn the same direction. So that would be something to check on a bench test. Since it is a rebuilt starter who really knows what is inside it. Has this tractor ever cranked that you know of with either the original starter that was on it when you got it or with the rebuilt one you put on? If not and the starter is turning the correct direction to crank the engine and the drive locks the one direction and clicks the other than I would be looking for another issue. Have you turned the engine crank to different locations and than tried starting? There will be 3 locations on the starter ring that will have more wear and maybe it is really worst than what it appears through the starter hole. Just different possibilities causing your issues. 

This is what I’m finding. This is why I keep bringing up the 12 tooth. https://www.tractorpartsasap.com/starter-delco-style-dd-3934-delco-remy-203416.html
 

this is the starter I’m seeing I don’t know what the original starter looks like or not. 

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27 minutes ago, IHFAN21 said:

This is what I’m finding. This is why I keep bringing up the 12 tooth. https://www.tractorpartsasap.com/starter-delco-style-dd-3934-delco-remy-203416.html
 

this is the starter I’m seeing I don’t know what the original starter looks like or not. 

You've never answered the question asked several times as to whether the starter that came out ever worked correctly. If it did then changing to a diff number of drive teeth isn't your answer.  I also wonder if the starter is turning the right direction. Don't some combine applications turn the opposite direction? Among others sounds like. Confirm what you have and answer the guys if the old starter ever worked right before you go buying more stuff. Then you may be heading in the right direction. 

Also did you try snowshoes suggestion ?

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2 minutes ago, iowaboy1965 said:

You've never answered the question asked several times as to whether the starter that came out ever worked correctly. If it did then changing to a diff number of drive teeth isn't your answer.  I also wonder if the starter is turning the right direction. Don't some combine applications turn the opposite direction? Among others sounds like. Confirm what you have and answer the guys if the old starter ever worked right before you go buying more stuff. Then you may be heading in the right direction. 

No sir the old starter never did work at-least not while I’ve owned the tractor and I’ve had it for about 2 or 3 years now. I’ve always just pull started it and that’s the same thing the fellow before me done as well. He said that he’d buy a new one crank it and then it started smoking. So what I wondered if it was maybe wrong tooth count and was getting hung up and smoking the starter. My bad for not answering that question. I just don’t want to buy another starter the same teeth count because I have a felling it would be the same result. Also if the 666 is the same flywheel and ring gear as mine I don’t see why a 12 tooth would hurt it. But I’m not forsure on this at all that’s why I’m here. This tractor here is very dependable and starts really easy. Just got tired of pulling it every time to use it. Also will the injector seals rubber and copper sealing washers and the return line is all that the same on my tractor as the 1066 cause that’s all i can find. They look the exact same but then again not forsure. If they are the same will the injectors work or are they bigger. 

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2 minutes ago, IHFAN21 said:

No sir the old starter never did work at-least not while I’ve owned the tractor and I’ve had it for about 2 or 3 years now. I’ve always just pull started it and that’s the same thing the fellow before me done as well. He said that he’d buy a new one crank it and then it started smoking. So what I wondered if it was maybe wrong tooth count and was getting hung up and smoking the starter. My bad for not answering that question. I just don’t want to buy another starter the same teeth count because I have a felling it would be the same result. Also if the 666 is the same flywheel and ring gear as mine I don’t see why a 12 tooth would hurt it. But I’m not forsure on this at all that’s why I’m here. This tractor here is very dependable and starts really easy. Just got tired of pulling it every time to use it. Also will the injector seals rubber and copper sealing washers and the return line is all that the same on my tractor as the 1066 cause that’s all i can find. They look the exact same but then again not forsure. If they are the same will the injectors work or are they bigger. 

Ok ty for answering that question. That clears that up.

Well nepoweshiekfarmalls is very knowledgeable and in the parts businesses so his and others advice will be crucial.

Whoever said try another used one had a good idea. If someone has one you can borrow for testing purposes. Then you could try the 12 tooth one. 1 try will tell you. Or you could buy a 12 tooth drive and try it in your reman?

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I can pull the starter on my 666 312D and count the teeth on the starter. Cannot tell you if has 10 or 12 teeth.  You must watch the parts books closely,  I believe the hydro starters had a different tooth count. I need to check my parts books to confirm that. Many online retailers are notorious for incorrect applications. Always start with an IH parts manual and the proper part number.  Sounds like your tractor may have had the wrong starter in it for a long time. Or a messed up ring gear.

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14 minutes ago, nepoweshiekfarmalls said:

I can pull the starter on my 666 312D and count the teeth on the starter. Cannot tell you if has 10 or 12 teeth.  You must watch the parts books closely,  I believe the hydro starters had a different tooth count. I need to check my parts books to confirm that. Many online retailers are notorious for incorrect applications. Always start with an IH parts manual and the proper part number.  Sounds like your tractor may have had the wrong starter in it for a long time. Or a messed up ring gear.

Okay if you don’t mind checking for me I’d appreciate it. I have been looking at my ih parts book and that’s were I got the part number then on the website it says for 666 but manual shows diesel tractors gear drive not hydro. 

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This is a picture off Messick's site, this was for a 686 gear drive tractor. Notice a completely different nose piece. At least it does not look like one that you can clock. Also the solenoid is different in the two pictures. If that is a correct picture for the starter they are selling it would make me wonder if it is the correct starter for this application.

Can you up load a picture or two of your starter and maybe what ever numbers are on it if any as that might help someone figure out what you have going on. Makes me think that you are either getting wrong starters or else the issue is more in the tractor itself as it is a little unusual for two different starters to act the same.

starter 686.jpg

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One other check that I thought of today that might be worth doing is measuring where the drive gear is in relationship to the flywheel gear when it is thrown out into the engaged position. You will need to pull the solenoid off the starter to do that. Pull the plunger towards rear of starter which will move the gear out to the drive position. You do not want to pull it plum tight but within about .030 from the washer in the nose. At that point measure from the flange surface to the end of the gear. Then measure from the flange surface of the bell housing to the far side of the flywheel gear. That should give you a pretty good idea if that bendix gear is capable of throwing far enough to engage the flywheel gear. The other way to check that if you feel like tearing the starter apart is to bolt the nose and armature up to the bell housing and then pull out the plunger and see if the gears are engaging and how if it slips or is a good engagement as you will be able to turn the armature by hand and feel what is going on. 

The other thing I noticed tonight when looking at Messick's again at the 686 tractor is the starter listed for the gear drive also says it is for a synchromesh transmission so I went back to the 666 parts book and that starts making more sense. It looks like the original Delco number for the gear drive tractor was 1113198. That now seems to be 108014A1R for the reman starter and when I looked up that number it says it fits the following 656 666 686 H70 and H86.

Looking at the drive for the 198 starter the Delco number was 1965788 and that is a 12 tooth drive so you probably will solve you issue with the correct drive. I still think I would check and make sure that the throw will allow the gear to travel far enough to engage the flywheel as who knows what nose you have on that starter or what it actually is suppose to fit.

The starter you supplied the link to shows the 1113198 number so that probably is the correct replacement starter for your application.

Hope this helps and let us all know what finally resolves your issue.

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2 hours ago, IHC_1470 said:

One other check that I thought of today that might be worth doing is measuring where the drive gear is in relationship to the flywheel gear when it is thrown out into the engaged position. You will need to pull the solenoid off the starter to do that. Pull the plunger towards rear of starter which will move the gear out to the drive position. You do not want to pull it plum tight but within about .030 from the washer in the nose. At that point measure from the flange surface to the end of the gear. Then measure from the flange surface of the bell housing to the far side of the flywheel gear. That should give you a pretty good idea if that bendix gear is capable of throwing far enough to engage the flywheel gear. The other way to check that if you feel like tearing the starter apart is to bolt the nose and armature up to the bell housing and then pull out the plunger and see if the gears are engaging and how if it slips or is a good engagement as you will be able to turn the armature by hand and feel what is going on. 

The other thing I noticed tonight when looking at Messick's again at the 686 tractor is the starter listed for the gear drive also says it is for a synchromesh transmission so I went back to the 666 parts book and that starts making more sense. It looks like the original Delco number for the gear drive tractor was 1113198. That now seems to be 108014A1R for the reman starter and when I looked up that number it says it fits the following 656 666 686 H70 and H86.

Looking at the drive for the 198 starter the Delco number was 1965788 and that is a 12 tooth drive so you probably will solve you issue with the correct drive. I still think I would check and make sure that the throw will allow the gear to travel far enough to engage the flywheel as who knows what nose you have on that starter or what it actually is suppose to fit.

The starter you supplied the link to shows the 1113198 number so that probably is the correct replacement starter for your application.

Hope this helps and let us all know what finally resolves your issue.

Hey so a good family friend has a 666 diesel all original to best of my knowledge it’s a gear drive and a d312. So I’m gonna call him tomorrow and see if he will let me barrow his starter and see if it works on my tractor. If it does crank it over then I’ll make sure I know all the specs on it and make sure it’s the same starter as the link I put earlier then I’ll buy that one. I’ve got my fingers crossed he lets me use it and that it works. Im hoping that I’ll be able to do this tomorrow afternoon I’ll let you all know how it goes. 

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2 hours ago, IHC_1470 said:

One other check that I thought of today that might be worth doing is measuring where the drive gear is in relationship to the flywheel gear when it is thrown out into the engaged position. You will need to pull the solenoid off the starter to do that. Pull the plunger towards rear of starter which will move the gear out to the drive position. You do not want to pull it plum tight but within about .030 from the washer in the nose. At that point measure from the flange surface to the end of the gear. Then measure from the flange surface of the bell housing to the far side of the flywheel gear. That should give you a pretty good idea if that bendix gear is capable of throwing far enough to engage the flywheel gear. The other way to check that if you feel like tearing the starter apart is to bolt the nose and armature up to the bell housing and then pull out the plunger and see if the gears are engaging and how if it slips or is a good engagement as you will be able to turn the armature by hand and feel what is going on. 

The other thing I noticed tonight when looking at Messick's again at the 686 tractor is the starter listed for the gear drive also says it is for a synchromesh transmission so I went back to the 666 parts book and that starts making more sense. It looks like the original Delco number for the gear drive tractor was 1113198. That now seems to be 108014A1R for the reman starter and when I looked up that number it says it fits the following 656 666 686 H70 and H86.

Looking at the drive for the 198 starter the Delco number was 1965788 and that is a 12 tooth drive so you probably will solve you issue with the correct drive. I still think I would check and make sure that the throw will allow the gear to travel far enough to engage the flywheel as who knows what nose you have on that starter or what it actually is suppose to fit.

The starter you supplied the link to shows the 1113198 number so that probably is the correct replacement starter for your application.

Hope this helps and let us all know what finally resolves your issue.

I’d say that’s the problem is the synchromesh is running the 10 tooth and I’m supposed to have the 12. I just sure hope I can get this figured out. It’s gonna make my day if that 666 starter works. 

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When I bought my 666 the starter made a racket, so I bought a new drive - from a Delco place where the guy usually is 100% on getting you the right stuff.   When I went to install it, it just ground.  I pulled it back off and looked at the starter drives side by side and .... WOW different teeth!

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More than likely the ten tooth is for a gas tractor. Different configuration all together. I got one for a 686, looked absolutely nothing like the original. Of course original went in for core. The reman one said it fit the tractors above, which, came with, gas engines as an option. The online parts books are way messed up, and if you don't have a competent sales man, he gets you the first one that pops up that has the model number without thinking about it. 

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I guess the drive could be different, but wow, there is definitely difference in the size. I tried a gas starter once, and it wouldn't even turn over the engine, and seemed to just bind up in the flywheel. I can't imagine that they are the some, but I could be wrong. 

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7 hours ago, MinnesotaFarmall said:

I guess the drive could be different, but wow, there is definitely difference in the size. I tried a gas starter once, and it wouldn't even turn over the engine, and seemed to just bind up in the flywheel. I can't imagine that they are the some, but I could be wrong. 

See I think that the gas tractors and possibly the hydro tractors used a 25mt vs the diesel gear drive used a 30mt which is a 12 tooth starter don’t hold me to it though. I finally found it in my IH d series engine and fuel system service manual it says d312 engine and has the flywheel assembly with ring gear and the 666 gear drive and 686 gear drive with the d312 use the same flywheel and ring gear in same category and same part number for them both. 

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