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I bought a good bull out of the penn state performance sale before spring of 2020.  I'm 2 seasons in (spring calving) and looking at keeping 8 of his daughters.

Should I try to sell him?  He his good and is registered angus with all the epds from the penn state trials.  I'm not so sure this means I'll be able to even sell him very easily.  Of course when I sell him I need another which means shell out but $.  

Some not so in the know say breed them back to him.  Doesn't seem right to me but they call it "line breeding".  

Looking for thoughts from you cattle guys.

 

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I’m no expert but my understanding is to not breed them to their father. I bought a bull this year, but had leased him last year. I bred heifers from the bull I leased two years ago. I figure he should be able to stay for awhile and I’ll sell the heifer calves.

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27 minutes ago, hobbyfarm said:

I bought a good bull out of the penn state performance sale before spring of 2020.  I'm 2 seasons in (spring calving) and looking at keeping 8 of his daughters.

Should I try to sell him?  He his good and is registered angus with all the epds from the penn state trials.  I'm not so sure this means I'll be able to even sell him very easily.  Of course when I sell him I need another which means shell out but $.  

Some not so in the know say breed them back to him.  Doesn't seem right to me but they call it "line breeding".  

Looking for thoughts from you cattle guys.

 

To sell him for decent money you would have to try local advertising. I would not breed back to him but some high dollar breeders do line breed for some traits. Also the problem with most breeds of cattle angus is a big one. Most of the continents top breeders ranchers purebred producers can trace their cattle back to one or two sores from the 1970s and even before. They were the bulls used to modernize and add height to cattle here from the short bodied breeds before.

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Yeah I would call "line breeding" inbreeding here too.  

I don't know that I want to lease the one I have.  Somehow my cattle got lice back in March.  I had bought 2 cows in December and am guessing it came from them.  Sharing animals is risky business.

I guess I should advertise him over winter and move on.

 

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First off I was told a few years back it’s line breeding if it works, inbreeding if it doesn’t. Either way I’m not a fan of it. It’s a 50/50 chance. Sometimes it looks good then next generation you get deformities. I would try to AI those heifers if you keep him. 
 Similar problem I have. I usually try to get the best bull I can afford every 2 years out of the Ohio beef expo. I have to consider in my budget that he will just go to sale barn when I’m done with him. I’ve tried selling 3 year olds locally once or twice with no luck. Everyone around me either wants the latest and greatest yearling or they want cheaper than sale barn. Sometimes they want both!  
Right now it’s a bigger issue because the Cargill plant in wyalusing pa isn’t buying very many head due to labor issues. I didn’t get mine shipped early enough and now cull prices are in the tank. Hopping for a bump in price early December 

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An old fishing buddy of mine worked for a bull test station. He said they would do that when the animals had good traits that they wanted to carry forward. I would guess there is an upside and a downside to it.

One of the most heartbreaking things for me to think about is getting a puppy and getting really attached to it, then finding out at 3 or 4 years old that it has hip displasia and needs put down. This is one positive aspect of the crossbreeds that are becoming popular. A Golden Retriever Great Dane cross really intrigues me.

Believe it or not this has been done with humans too. Look into Hawaiian royalty.

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6 minutes ago, 1256pickett said:

First off I was told a few years back it’s line breeding if it works, inbreeding if it doesn’t. Either way I’m not a fan of it. It’s a 50/50 chance. Sometimes it looks good then next generation you get deformities. I would try to AI those heifers if you keep him. 
 Similar problem I have. I usually try to get the best bull I can afford every 2 years out of the Ohio beef expo. I have to consider in my budget that he will just go to sale barn when I’m done with him. I’ve tried selling 3 year olds locally once or twice with no luck. Everyone around me either wants the latest and greatest yearling or they want cheaper than sale barn. Sometimes they want both!  
Right now it’s a bigger issue because the Cargill plant in wyalusing pa isn’t buying very many head due to labor issues. I didn’t get mine shipped early enough and now cull prices are in the tank. Hopping for a bump in price early December 

Sounds like a similar situation.  I bought the best that I could afford out of the trial.  Word is the prices were off since it was during start of pandemic and their first online only sale.

I hate to even think of sale barning him.  That would be a waste.

Trying AI would gain me another year.  Select sires would do it for me.  Trouble there is they would have to be kept away from the bull all summer.  Something to consider.

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Bull selection was a lot easier when I was spending other peoples money AND dealing with more than 6 cows. 
If you sell the bull you have, what all tests are you required to get? I like to use virgin bulls, but on my own cows, I have been leasing 1 from my neighbor. This year was a wreck. Bred 4, and only have 1 bred. 🤔Probably going to sell the heifers and buy back some older bred cows. 
I don’t like line breeding, but I don’t AI, so I might. 

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I would not be afraid of doing what your proposing. I have more than one bull, but not enough heifers to buy a new bull every year. The goal is a 100 cows, never got to 80 yet. Generally keep heifer, but with bad drought every few years and mostly leased pasture.

 

You only hope unless 😉 you have a trust fund or will settle for run of the mill or poorer cattle is the find another that you could trade bulls with so you could both just buy one bull every 2 or 3  years.

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Not everyone has the pastures and bull power to make sure a bull doesn't breed back his own progeny.

We throw out 200 cows and 12 or 13 bulls in our big bunch year after year. 

Try to rotate bulls between bunches but a father daughter hookup has probably happened before.

I like AI if you can.  You can synchronize and someone come in and breed them. Not cheap but a way to get your cows bred to really good bloodlines. You can still use your bull for cleanup if he's a heifer bull.

Trading bulls with someone you know and trust to have a good clean herd is still risky but may be an option.

Used bulls don't bring much out here except weigh up.

You can sell all your heifers and by bred cows.

You can sell all your heifers and buy back heifers to breed.

We all have to things from time to time that may not be copacetic with the world. We just try not to make a lifelong habit of it!

 

 

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3 hours ago, sandhiller said:

Not everyone has the pastures and bull power to make sure a bull doesn't breed back his own progeny.

We throw out 200 cows and 12 or 13 bulls in our big bunch year after year. 

Try to rotate bulls between bunches but a father daughter hookup has probably happened before.

I like AI if you can.  You can synchronize and someone come in and breed them. Not cheap but a way to get your cows bred to really good bloodlines. You can still use your bull for cleanup if he's a heifer bull.

Trading bulls with someone you know and trust to have a good clean herd is still risky but may be an option.

Used bulls don't bring much out here except weigh up.

You can sell all your heifers and by bred cows.

You can sell all your heifers and buy back heifers to breed.

We all have to things from time to time that may not be copacetic with the world. We just try not to make a lifelong habit of it!

 

 

What’s it run per head to sync and AI in your area? We run the two shot cidr program here. 

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6 hours ago, highcotton said:

What’s it run per head to sync and AI in your area? We run the two shot cidr program here. 

I think it was $12 head to ai plus the straw cost.   I could be wrong.  As far as syncing I'm not sure.  That is something we could do ourselves I believe.  I'm going to look into this.  Lots of small dairies that use ai services in our area.  

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8 hours ago, highcotton said:

What’s it run per head to sync and AI in your area? We run the two shot cidr program here. 

 

1 hour ago, hobbyfarm said:

I think it was $12 head to ai plus the straw cost.   I could be wrong.  As far as syncing I'm not sure.  That is something we could do ourselves I believe.  I'm going to look into this.  Lots of small dairies that use ai services in our area.  

Not sure about AI charge as I've always done it myself. 

Went to a school put on by ABS to learn how. 

300 bucks but was worth it as they gave some discounts on first semen order. 

The semen I buy is usually from $18 to $23 per straw. 

Really turned my cow herd around by the heifers I was getting to put back into the herd as replacements. 

Synching cost will depend on the program you use and if you use a service, they will probably recommend one that will work best for you. 

The more I think about it, I would recommend hiring a service for the first year and then seeing if you can live with that expense or if you are like me and enjoy being around your cows......learn how to do it yourself. Also good to include family. Great learning for kids especially. 

Once your bull ages out of your herd you can lease a cleanup bull for future years if you like. That is what I do and it is nice not to have to have a place to run them for the 10 months out of the year you are not using them. 

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15 hours ago, sandhiller said:

 

Not sure about AI charge as I've always done it myself. 

Went to a school put on by ABS to learn how. 

300 bucks but was worth it as they gave some discounts on first semen order. 

The semen I buy is usually from $18 to $23 per straw. 

Really turned my cow herd around by the heifers I was getting to put back into the herd as replacements. 

Synching cost will depend on the program you use and if you use a service, they will probably recommend one that will work best for you. 

The more I think about it, I would recommend hiring a service for the first year and then seeing if you can live with that expense or if you are like me and enjoy being around your cows......learn how to do it yourself. Also good to include family. Great learning for kids especially. 

Once your bull ages out of your herd you can lease a cleanup bull for future years if you like. That is what I do and it is nice not to have to have a place to run them for the 10 months out of the year you are not using them. 

Was just curious. My BIL does all our sync and breeding. He was a tech for Select Sires for a while, but it was too much with chicken houses- had to be close by for alarm calls. He does some work on his own now. AI also turned our herd around and it’s gotta be cheaper than a bull if you do it yourself. I think he charges $8 per head plus semen plus a trip charge dependent on distance. I don’t deal with the cows unless they’re in the highway in the middle of the night and my BIL is not around. 

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maybe i.m wrong, won.t be first time. i would breed him on his daughters and sell the calves as feeders not keep any would get your heifers bred and gey one more year out of bull.

pete

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If your bull and cows are of different breeds you can inbreed for several generations without concern. Just Cull animals as you normally should.

If they are of the same breed check their pedigrees. If they are closely related you should be concerned. If they are not closely related you should be fine for several generations.

Problems with Inbreeding are greatly exaggerated. Many purebred dogs are severely inbred because of the small number of animals the breed was established from. Inbreeding in European royalty went on for centuries before problems began to show up.

They linebreed chickens severely to make the hybrids we eat. 

Besides, hillbillies have been Inbreeding for a long time without any problems! If you don't believe me just watch deliverance!

Thx-Ace 

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I talked to the local hoof trimmer who has all the contacts.  I think we will try to ai them.  A good conversation on this thread for sure.

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