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Super M Installing M&W Live Hydrolic


Andrew Stalzer
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I purchased a M&W Live hydrolic set up. It come with the pump, a cross valve and the belly pump conversion.  My Super M serial number is 5805 not sure the year. I installed all the parts and was thinking it was working correctly until i went to a old IH Bardge Box single hydrolic hose and could only lift it 3/4 of the way up.  Then on the way down about half way you could here the tractor bog a bit putting pressure some place.  So i stared messing with it to figure out that on the belly pump conversion whatever that consist off where the return goes threw the old belly pump drive.  With  that being said the return of the hydrolic oil is charging the old belly pump and the original hydroilc lever if you pull it it will bog the engine.  I think i need to move my return line to the side of the tractor were the original return would be.  Has anybody seen anything like this.  Thanks

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Really need more info. Most used a suction line from a drilled and then threaded hole in lower right on the hydraulic housing. Then most thread the hole where control rod went in housing for a return line from a aftermarket valve. Pressure line from pump went straight to control valve.  Systems using the IH remote control valve dumped return oil in the original fill port. Since there was no pressure relief with the IH valve one was added in pressure line before valve with return line from it to one of the 1/2 pipe side ports. Aftermarket valve for that system had relief built in. Both those systems were with internal pump removed from belly housing.  Then one system removed the internal pump gears and blocked the suction for original pump and had a pressure line to where original drive for pump was located.  Then it worked the same as original except pumping didn't stop when clutch was released. If you have all internals in the belly pump a return can not be hooked to a side port. Options are to return to fill port or in bottom of housing without more changes.  After reading the post again, sounds like you have return line from valve to the original pump drive hole? If the unit came with the complete housing and all that would be where pressure line from pump goes. If so and converted inside pump you don't need another valve for a one way lift, the operating rod will do that with just a hose from side port to lift cylinder. Be easier to lower slowly with a spool valve though. If using a spool valve with 4 ports for double acting flow on one way lift you need to loop outlet port not used for lift over to return line, That way it's not loading pump. If you have a control valve for single acting use the oil flows back trough valve return line to a open port with no blockage or pressure on reservoir. Only way pressure will return through side ports on a intact liftall belly unit is if the control rod is full forward.

Edited by DWV
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The simplest way to use the belly pump as a reservoir is to pull the oil from the bottom drain and return the oil through the fill pipe. Set up that way there is no way it could "charge" the belly pump. 

It's only 6 quarts capacity, so you probably ran out of oil raising the barge wagon.

What were you using for a hydraulic valve? If you were using a 2-way spool that was causing the engine to labor. You are dead-heading the pressure during the lowering process, which hopefully you have a relief valve in the system somewhere (maybe built into the valve). Otherwise the system can be damaged. 

We have a dump trailer that uses one-way hydraulics. Generally when we let it down on a tractor that does not have float, we shut the tractor off to avoid dead-heading the system for a long period of time. Usually it's time for a break anyway.

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Remove belly pump/reservoir. Remove pump and that’ll give you room for 2 more quarts. With live hydraulics you only use the belly for a reservoir.  Use the bottom drain as suction. Return/bypass on mine is right front. Plug the other belly outlets. 

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Thanks for all the info.  I will clarify a few things i am pulling the oil from a hole 3/4 hole i drilled and taped from bottom of the old belly pump.  The return as i was saying is going back threw the original belly pump drive.  This is the how it was plumed when i got it.  So here are some pictures of what i have. Last night i ripped the belly pump back out and took the pump inside out completely and this is what they did for the return.  You can see how they welded the old suction hole and that to me looks like a heck of a restriction. After seeing the pictures do you guys think this could be my issues i am seeing.  Thanks again

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That pump was modified at one time to use the M&W pump pressure to go in the drive opening. If other parts were still inside other than gears it's restricted with return going in that way. Pulling original operating lever back would block it completely unless pressure got high enough to open relief valve. Did unit still have the springs and parts to block side ports to keep oil from flowing back in until operating lever was pushed forward.?  Since you removed parts inside and just using 1/2 inch hose the return could go on side ports.  Drive hole was plugged with a expansion plug if internals were removed  with M&W system not using the internal valving. If the spool valve doesn't have a pressure release one needs added since that system used the IH relief.  How are you using the double acting spool valve with one hose hooked to cylinder to raise and lower?  If using that valve as a one way the remote outlet not used to raise needs plumbed back to reservoir, side outlet works for that now.  Guessing the pipe to bottom of plate under spool valve is just to support it?

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As I said, you are DEAD HEADING the system trying to lower the one-way cylinder on the barge wagon. That is what is causing your engine to labor.

Shut the engine off to lower the barge wagon, or do as DWV says and run the other work hose back into the reservoir. Shutting the engine off is the simpler solution.

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My other question is how do I know if my 2way spool value has a relief build in it. So I will have the same issue with my IH 70 plow with only on hydrolic hose on it.  I need to put the second hose on the cylinder to make everything work correctly.  Or run another hose from the other outlet to the reservor.

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13 hours ago, Farmall Nut said:

What you now have will work fine. To use with single hose, connect the “lowering” hose to that male Pioneer connector. This should stop the deadheading. 

Good catch! I am sure that is EXACTLY what that connector is for. Pull the second work hose back up front, and plug it in for use with one-way cylinders.

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14 hours ago, Andrew Stalzer said:

My other question is how do I know if my 2way spool value has a relief build in it. So I will have the same issue with my IH 70 plow with only on hydrolic hose on it.  I need to put the second hose on the cylinder to make everything work correctly.  Or run another hose from the other outlet to the reservor.

Most of the valves with relief will have a plug with spring behind it or a lock nut and screw to turn to adjust pressure if they have a relief in them. Way that vale you have is sitting most are located on left rear corner area.  Put a picture of what your hydraulic reservoir was modified for. Also two more setups that M&W offered and they had more. Deluxe system would have been nice for you. As to checking fill level it would be best if valve was moved and return from it put in at another port. More likely to squirt oil out vent when returning to top. But when using the original IH spool valve M&W used a double drain plug with stand pipe. Small plug was removed, if oil came out level okay, if not low.  Side port with quick coupling wouldn't work before you removed inner housings if check valve parts were still in it.  Will work now. Before you were trying to return oil in drive hole with internal parts modified to hold pressure.  

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Can you guys tell me exactly where the 2 hydrolic hoses mount in the back of the tractor. I have the hoses going under the seat mount not sure the correct place to mount the bracket and beable to move the hoses enough to get the fitting to work.  How many split weight do guys put on Super M for plowing IH 70 plow 3-14s

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2 minutes ago, Andrew Stalzer said:

Can you guys tell me exactly where the 2 hydrolic hoses mount in the back of the tractor.

There is no exact location. Whatever's convenient for you, really. I've got them mounted multiple different ways on different letter series. Some to one of the rear deck bolts, others to a hole in the corner of the deck.

Most I've seen are set up with breakaway couplers at the rear because even though plows started having hydraulic cylinders in the 1950's they still broke away from the tractor if they hit a big enough rock. However breakaway couplers are hard mounted making it inconvenient to take the hose up and plug it in up front for the return.

6 minutes ago, Andrew Stalzer said:

How many split weight do guys put on Super M for plowing IH 70 plow 3-14s

However many you need. I've seen anywhere from none to six full circles per side. BTW split weights would not be "correct" on a Super M, but use what you have, just be prepared to be nit-picked, sneered and snickered at by the other guys at the plow day.

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