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What IH model was the equivalent to the JD 5010?


Michael Halsall
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52 minutes ago, jass1660 said:

Must be a reason IH sold over 5 million tractors before any one else, cheap?reliable? Durable? Not as long lasting as the other companies?

  OK, I'll bite.  IH through its beginning with JP Morgan was well financed when the age of tractors in North America was dawning around the time of WWI.  This allowed IH to develop tractors and build market share almost over night.  IH also had very timely hits with the Farmall around the mid-1920's and the letter series during the very late 1930's.  This happened all the while when IH's competition lacked the money to be serious competition or had misfires.  Over time IH's competitors solved their problems in some instances or ceased to exist in other cases.  High profitability was the largest reason that IH's chief competition JD stuck with an outdated design for 15 years longer than normal.  But high profit laid the foundation for major product development and to build the company in other respects such as wide spread available financing.  For good or bad farmers did not have to beg the local bank when JD would approve financing on most purchases.

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1 hour ago, Big Bud guy said:

And some if you make it sound like the 5010-6030 were marketing failures which is false.  Throw in the 4840 numbers and IH wishes they could have had all those sales since they were no 2 at this point.  

There is nothing true in that statement at all.  6030 evolved into the 4840 which evolved into the 4850 and so on. The big rowcrop tractor did not die with the 6030.  6030 was more then 150 hp.  4840s did not use 4020 rear ends.  You can see the size difference a mile away.  And what was IH's way anyway??  Build V8 rowcrop tractors to take on Massey?

The 5010, 5020 6030 was a one off trans design. Very similar to all the others but different arrangements of gear shafts and such. 4020 trans went  on through 4440,4450 with improvements. 4520, 4620 went on to 4630 , 4640 and I have worked on a couple 4840s on outside stuff but not trans work but I would be 99% sure it is the 4640 rear. The 4620 , 4630 was the rear they used in the 4 wd tractors. Not saying each series newer didn’t have subtle gear changes but for most part looked the same as predecessor 

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1 hour ago, dale560 said:

The 5010, 5020 6030 was a one off trans design. Very similar to all the others but different arrangements of gear shafts and such. 4020 trans went  on through 4440,4450 with improvements. 4520, 4620 went on to 4630 , 4640 and I have worked on a couple 4840s on outside stuff but not trans work but I would be 99% sure it is the 4640 rear. The 4620 , 4630 was the rear they used in the 4 wd tractors. Not saying each series newer didn’t have subtle gear changes but for most part looked the same as predecessor 

JD did make an 8 speed powershift for their scrapers/road graders and from what I heard they could have been bolted on to a 5020 or 6030 with a few mods.  There has always been talked why JD didn't make a 6030 powershift since they had the components to make one.  However, I wonder if this industrial transmission was used in the 4840.  

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31 minutes ago, Big Bud guy said:

JD did make an 8 speed powershift for their scrapers/road graders and from what I heard they could have been bolted on to a 5020 or 6030 with a few mods.  There has always been talked why JD didn't make a 6030 powershift since they had the components to make one.  However, I wonder if this industrial transmission was used in the 4840.  

That’s what I was thinking also that it was the power shift for the 5020s. Will have to research 4840s some more.

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Ih sold so many tractors early. They got complacent in the late 40s and early 50 with tractors. They were doing great. More H farmalls were produced than any other tractor before or since.   Then they spent alot of R&D on construction and other non ag projects while jd was concentrating on ag. 

If you look  hard,  not many big corporations from WWII, let alone WWI, are still around complete and not reorganized.  

GM had a major reorganization a dozen or so years ago where they effectively changed ownership. All I know  for sure is they wrote down their bonds (debt) I owned. I wish I could write down my debt and not have to repay it without loosing my place...

Thx-Ace 

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I know my experiences are different than other guys but the only thing in this world I believe 100% is what I see with my own eyes. And all I know is in the 40 mile radius where I live there are several 806 and 856 still being used, a couple 856 are daily feed tractors and countless 86 series IH still being used for everything from tillage to pulling feeders to large manure spreaders daily including my dads farm. And I've seen two 6030s in my life. One is a puller and the other one sits by a guys shed and hasnt moved in years. Just wondering if IHs idea for heavy tillage, was to offer awd or like others have said 4wd with the 4100 and so on. Not sure if the 5010-6030 offered awd but I believe IH offered it 06 series and on. They developed a tire with a straighter bar to help with slippage on the 1206 so reaching the limits of a 2wd format had to be on their radar. 

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20 hours ago, 606 diesel said:

Considering how few of the big john deeres sold and IH's fiasco with the 4300 they probably thought it wasn't worth the risk to out do them with another big machine, not to mention they would have to build another machine from the ground up, and a new engine to power it with it wasn't worth the cost for such a small reward. John deere actually got suckered into building the 6030 by Steiger according to Lee Klancher's book red 4wd tractors.

Are you talking about the JD 8010 & 8020 4WD tractors of which only about 100 of each were built? 

IH sold only 44 (?) of the giant 4300. Both were the 8010 & 4300 were probably too big for most farmers in the early 1960s and both were pieces of construction machinery gone farming rather than balanced, practical farm tractors.  JD later contracted Wagner to build their second generation of giant 4WD tractors.

I'll have to buy Mr Klancher's book to get up to date on big IH and JD tractors!

Regards from Michael H.

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Not to promote John Deere. I am an equal opportunity  color blind type. But I am more loyal to ihc. Here are some pictures of a jd trans mission housing from various models. I looked up 4840 and it is the same powershift as a 4640. The 4640 quad range is the 4630 incarnation but better. Finally the 5010,20 6030 trans it was a build on itself although very similar to the other two model sizes. Pictures of actually what trans is and how the crazy range John Deere works. The pinion is your range selector. You have four gear options for ranges. ABCD on newer tractors or on early the stops between 1,3  2,5  4,6 ,  7,8

                                   A.    B.     C.      D

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50 minutes ago, Michael Halsall said:

JD later contracted Wagner to build their second generation of giant 4WD tractors.

 

Regards from Michael H.

I believe that JD did get Wagner to get ready to make them their tractors only to back out of the deal sealing the fate of Wagner tractor . At least that's what I heard happened

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Here are more pics of tractors. Notice the 5020 trans case is about 6 inches wider than other tractors from back. A picture of 4520 to show change in engine the 45 had the compact rear mount Roosa master pump. The 4620 had new style front drive inj pump. The 4630 was modernized 4620, the 4640 basically big improved 4630 with 466 engine wider fuel tank for wider radiator but still inset frames. The 4640 rear is almost the same as 8640 4wd and a picture of the narrow 4020,4320 4430 up trans.

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58 minutes ago, bitty said:

I believe that JD did get Wagner to get ready to make them their tractors only to back out of the deal sealing the fate of Wagner tractor . At least that's what I heard happened

I believe JD sold rebadged Wagner's for more than a year, maybe 2. But they had a cannot compete clause in there contract with Wagner. Which left Wagner with a pile of parts and no way to sell farm tractors. 

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59 minutes ago, dale560 said:

Here are more pics of tractors. Notice the 5020 trans case is about 6 inches wider than other tractors from back. A picture of 4520 to show change in engine the 45 had the compact rear mount Roosa master pump. The 4620 had new style front drive inj pump. The 4630 was modernized 4620, the 4640 basically big improved 4630 with 466 engine wider fuel tank for wider radiator but still inset frames. The 4640 rear is almost the same as 8640 4wd and a picture of the narrow 4020,4320 4430 up trans.

Need a breakdown of that industrial 8 speed while you are at it🙂.  Also the wheelbase on the 40 series was longer then the 30 series.  Don't know if that came from longer frame rails.  

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16 minutes ago, ray54 said:

I believe JD sold rebadged Wagner's for more than a year, maybe 2. But they had a cannot compete clause in there contract with Wagner. Which left Wagner with a pile of parts and no way to sell farm tractors. 

The contract called for Wagner to make a 100 tractors for JD.  JD sold 51 tractors in 3 years before canceling the contract.  A rip roaring success.  

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3 hours ago, Michael Halsall said:
On 10/12/2021 at 9:21 PM, 606 diesel said:

Are you talking about the JD 8010 & 8020 4WD tractors of which only about 100 of each were built?

There were only 100 8010 tractors built. I believe they were all built in winter 1959 and Deere still had new inventory left in 1965. All 8010s were recalled mostly because of trans problems and were then rebadged as 8020s. This means that all 8020s were originally built as an 8010. I believe there is at least one tractor in existence that escaped the recall and is still an 8010. There were even less WA-14s and WA-17s than 8010s. 

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1 minute ago, Dirt_Floor_Poor said:

There were only 100 8010 tractors built. I believe they were all built in winter 1959 and Deere still had new inventory left in 1965. All 8010s were recalled mostly because of trans problems and were then rebadged as 8020s. This means that all 8020s were originally built as an 8010. I believe there is at least one tractor in existence that escaped the recall and is still an 8010. There were even less WA-14s and WA-17s than 8010s. 

WA-14   23 units  WA-17  28 units according to Tractordata

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5 hours ago, Big Bud guy said:

 

 

F09085CA-B721-4B7B-9D4A-7A137C2CEAF5.jpeg

Please educate me. An 8020 with a ???? in the middle and a 50?0. My knowledge of the JD multi-cylinder tractors only extends to the first and second New Generation tractors (**10 & **20 models)  The 8010/8020 and Wagner built Deeres have always grabbed my attention due to their oddity value. 

Regards from Michael H. 

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8 hours ago, Michael Halsall said:

WA-14   23 units  WA-17  28 units according to Tractordata

We sell our cattle in a small town 120 miles to the south. Their John Deere dealer had a John Deere WA tractor sitting on the lot from the first year we sold their until the dealer got sold. Think they always had it priced in the ads for about 17,000 years ago.

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4 hours ago, Michael Halsall said:

Please educate me. An 8020 with a ???? in the middle and a 50?0. My knowledge of the JD multi-cylinder tractors only extends to the first and second New Generation tractors (**10 & **20 models)  The 8010/8020 and Wagner built Deeres have always grabbed my attention due to their oddity value. 

Regards from Michael H. 

Looks to be some kind of prototype. 

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6 hours ago, Michael Halsall said:

Please educate me. An 8020 with a ???? in the middle and a 50?0. My knowledge of the JD multi-cylinder tractors only extends to the first and second New Generation tractors (**10 & **20 models)  The 8010/8020 and Wagner built Deeres have always grabbed my attention due to their oddity value. 

Regards from Michael H. 

8020 on the left.  5010 on the right. Middle is the 200 hp X60S. Picture taken in 1965.  Last picture was taken in 1967 after they added a sound gard cab.

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