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Bypassing emissions on modern tractors?


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seems like everyone with a modern diesel has bypassed the emissions by the time the thing is 5 years old. how complex is it to do on a tractor? In particular we have been looking for a pre emissions Case 580SM but stumble upon some 580N machines that look really nice but are 2013-14-15-16 ish, sort of seems like the price is similar to an older machine with no emissions, presumably because of demand. 

as there is no one currently looking over our shoulder on this, as in no inspection, no enforcement and no warranty to be concerned with can all the tier 4 crap just be removed? what is involved? 

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15 minutes ago, Thesd5488 said:

Best thing you can do is remove it   Local dealer even recommends that you do it 

Question is who can remove it? I mean, i have a welder and a sawzall, but properly removed system presumably has programming involved,  new injectors? Gotta be more to it apart from just yanking parts. 
as far as I know the N is still using the 4BT cummins, so I know they can run without emissions, but I would rather not screw up a 40-60k machine. 

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19 minutes ago, vtfireman85 said:

Question is who can remove it? I mean, i have a welder and a sawzall, but properly removed system presumably has programming involved,  new injectors? Gotta be more to it apart from just yanking parts. 
as far as I know the N is still using the 4BT cummins, so I know they can run without emissions, but I would rather not screw up a 40-60k machine. 

No one can legally remove any of the emission garbage. Just for the record. 

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2 minutes ago, Lazy WP said:

No one can legally remove any of the emission garbage. Just for the record. 

I am aware of that, as it is a machine we don't own, i am speaking hypothetically. 
i was reading an article about the used market, it is estimated that 600-900k units are traded annually, many heading over seas to areas that don't have ULSD to run in these machines, meaning that either companies somewhere are going to have to manufacture delete kits, or the market is going to flounder. 

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There’s “kits” to delete most anything. In all honesty, check with your dealer. If you can prove that the emission garbage is at fault, won’t run, and parts are not readily available, lots of times the dealer can “temporarily” bypass it. 

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The best strategy may be to learn as much as you can to maintain it. If you totally emerge yourself in the technology it will likely become less frustrating. Back when gasoline engine emissions control was first introduced guys who didn't understand it started ripping stuff off sometimes making it worse. Admittedly, those first efforts on carburetor engines were primitive and led to driveability issues. Now with computer controls it's long in the past. Computer controlled diesels should also be well on the way but, as I understand it and not from individual experience, some components are troublesome and have bad history. Gain the knowledge and be ready to keep ahead of those issues. It may require you to acquire an expensive scan tool but figure that into the purchase price of the machine. I still see guys get frustrated when their cheapie code reader gets them to throwing parts when a better scan tool and some research on how things work can isolate a problem. Sometimes one sensor will trigger lots of codes but if you look at it logically you can find the root cause.

Find the forum (support group) for the machine. Or maybe deleting the whole mess may be an option providing you can program the computer.

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Lot of dealerships around us will not work on a deleted system until it is fully intact again. The claim it all must be run through the computer system in order to correctly diagnos it all.

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13 minutes ago, MinnesotaFarmall said:

Lot of dealerships around us will not work on a deleted system until it is fully intact again. The claim it all must be run through the computer system in order to correctly diagnos it all.

Except Torgersons deletes the emissions on their own tractors they farm with.  We have three 2013 Pete’s that have been deleted.  The local independent mechanic had no problem working on them.  

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I wouldn't see a problem with the procedure if you are smart enough to work on them and have the electrical equipment to do so. Local truck shop that deleted vehicles for a long time just got a $210k fine for all of the vehicles plus milage. Then, the epa went after the owners too.  Don't know what ever happened with them.

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The EPA is really cracking down on "deletes", some of the guys offering kits for pickups have received 7 digit fines from the EPA and they plan on going after the off-road market too.

 

I'm not against deleting but if you take any parts off be sure to keep them somewhere safe so at some point in the future you don't have to buy $5k worth of parts to make it legal.  

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I'm no expert, but once you get into the tier 4 that have to regen, that's when it gets tricky. Your past just deleting egr valves and dpf filters. Now you have to fool the computer. That's where programmers and other things come into play. Somebody somewhere should know. Pickups and big trucks are a whole different game because everyone wants that to be gone. Machines are more of a niche market. I'm sure I'm not telling you anything you dont know. I'd start with the best mechanic you know that's up to date with newer stuff. Go from there. 

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2 hours ago, Lazy WP said:

There’s “kits” to delete most anything. In all honesty, check with your dealer. If you can prove that the emission garbage is at fault, won’t run, and parts are not readily available, lots of times the dealer can “temporarily” bypass it. 

I know for a fact that my local IH dealer will not do that and never have done that and never will do that . 

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58 minutes ago, Cliff Neubauer said:

The EPA is really cracking down on "deletes", some of the guys offering kits for pickups have received 7 digit fines from the EPA and they plan on going after the off-road market too.

 

I'm not against deleting but if you take any parts off be sure to keep them somewhere safe so at some point in the future you don't have to buy $5k worth of parts to make it legal.  

You can’t tell our trucks have been deleted just walking by. The def tank is still there and so is the exhaust muffler.  We removed the muffler and reemed it out and reinstalled it.  

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18 minutes ago, Big Bud guy said:

You can’t tell our trucks have been deleted just walking by. The def tank is still there and so is the exhaust muffler.  We removed the muffler and reemed it out and reinstalled it.  

But the computer will tell them when the last passive regen was done....

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4 minutes ago, jass1660 said:

But the computer will tell them when the last passive regen was done....

True but you forget were I live.  Montana is almost a Mad Max world compared to your liberal state.  

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Just now, Big Bud guy said:

True but you forget were I live.  Montana is almost a Mad Max world compared to your liberal state.  

Yeah, I’m just a company driver now, run it till we need to tow ya! I’ll sit on the side of the road for $60/hour....

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I would not  do it unless it gives trouble.  At work we have a 624K and 938K caterpillar payloaders that feed cows all day. Those are 2014 vintage.   Deere has 12 K hours cat has almost 14K.  They are tier 4 interim which means DPF and a fuel doser to do the cleaning.  We have had no major problems.  Had a plugged exhaust gas pressure sensor tube on the cat that required a manual forced regen.  The John Deere had a turbo due to actuator failure and the exhaust pipe between the turbo and the filter broke so all the fuel from the doser was not going to the proper spot but a forced regen took care of it.  You want to take care of any problem right away.  All the guys from the dealership tell me a big problem is guys run them till they wont move.  Do not idle it at all.  Those loaders have 5 minute idle shut down timers so the turbo can cool down but they can go run the load of feed off.  We also have several tractors with various amount of tier 4 stuff.  The problems are not anything close to what people said.  Maybe we are just lucky.  There are people who can do it for sure.  I know guys who have deleted trucks like big bud guy and are having no issues.  If we were having lots of trouble we probably would look at it harder.  

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1 hour ago, Big Bud guy said:

You can’t tell our trucks have been deleted just walking by. The def tank is still there and so is the exhaust muffler.  We removed the muffler and reemed it out and reinstalled it.  

You can tell a deleted truck while running past it. Just have to know where to look and for what. 

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3 hours ago, New Englander said:

The best strategy may be to learn as much as you can to maintain it. If you totally emerge yourself in the technology it will likely become less frustrating. Back when gasoline engine emissions control was first introduced guys who didn't understand it started ripping stuff off sometimes making it worse. Admittedly, those first efforts on carburetor engines were primitive and led to driveability issues. Now with computer controls it's long in the past. Computer controlled diesels should also be well on the way but, as I understand it and not from individual experience, some components are troublesome and have bad history. Gain the knowledge and be ready to keep ahead of those issues. It may require you to acquire an expensive scan tool but figure that into the purchase price of the machine. I still see guys get frustrated when their cheapie code reader gets them to throwing parts when a better scan tool and some research on how things work can isolate a problem. Sometimes one sensor will trigger lots of codes but if you look at it logically you can find the root cause.

Find the forum (support group) for the machine. Or maybe deleting the whole mess may be an option providing you can program the computer.

The most time when a modern diesel malfunctions it's the emmission controll technology specially egr valves and particulate filters.

 are troublemakers. Also 

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4 minutes ago, Big Bud guy said:

How???  Were would you look on our trucks?  

The tell tale white powder residue around the stack is replaced with soot and dpf/def trucks have a distinctive odor compared to free running trucks.

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