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Question on PTO clutch slippage on 1066


Coytee
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I agree, Unless you can swap ONLY the motors and they are identical, you have to keep the circuit the same.   

Sounds to me like the pressure relief may just be bypassing the second motor under load, and you need to set it up a bit.     But I'm not seeing the circuit or anything, just general hydraulics thoughts.

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Tried to draw some arrows to give flow direction.  Oil comes out of pump to the motor on the left (first use of oil).  You can see the hose going from the motor to one of the return tanks.  Oil then goes to motor on other side which has a relief valve (I believe they all do) but this one is self contained.  Then it goes to the drain tank.

This circuit if I recall, might use a 1" hose.  The center motor is on a separate circuit and I think it uses a 3/4" hose.  Whatever the real sizes are, the center motor is downsized a bit since it's the only motor on that circuit.

Oil Flow.jpg

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I again, brought these to the local shop, they looked at them.  I brought up (what I called scoring) inside the cylinder, his answer was "meh, I've seen much worse, I'd say use them"

All the input/output modules simply bolt onto the motors.  The relief valves bolt to the top so the motor itself can be swapped around. I had to get a bit creative to get the bolts off.  They can't be reached with a socket.  The first motor I took apart, I first removed and THEN tried to loosen the bolts....that was a major fail.  Book calls for a 'mechanics vice'.  I don't have one so had to think a bit....  and got my vice out.  I loosened ALL the bolts on the other motors before removing them so the mower itself held the motor.  Then when putting back, I gave the final torque after it was on the mower.  Sure made it tons easier!!

Oh, and I snapped a torque extender (if I recall the name)  A 3" attachment to let you sneak in/under something just like I need here.  First one snapped so ponied up and got a Snapon.  Yet another reason to never cheap out on tools.

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You have the stupidest problems with that mower and have since you've started using way back whenever....

You do what you want, but you'd be rid of a lot of headaches, repairs, and probably save a lot of money selling that cluster of a mower and buying a good Bush Hog or Schuldte, or whatever fits everyones fancy.

Travis

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Lol, I'll await your donations.... 👍 You might say that about the tractor as well....both were fixer uppers and the mower cost less than a third of the tractor. I've spent far more getting the tractor work worthy than the mower.

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10 minutes ago, Sparky said:

You have the stupidest problems with that mower and have since you've started using way back whenever....

You do what you want, but you'd be rid of a lot of headaches, repairs, and probably save a lot of money selling that cluster of a mower and buying a good Bush Hog or Schuldte, or whatever fits everyones fancy.

Travis

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Forgotten is that in the beginning, I had a lot of troubles snapping the 540 shaft on the tractor (snapped it three times).  As it turns out, it was the linkage that connects the lower arms to each other.  When they moved, it moved hitting the multiplier attached to the 540 and putting side stress on it, snapping it.

Interesting that nobody is noticing that the tractor itself caused my first issues until I got them figured out and took that linkage off.

Be that as it may, I guess someone has to take J-Mech's place huh?

I'm still awaiting donations from the constructive help crowd....  

🙂

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As stated problem could be in relief valve. I really suspect motor problem. One of those thrust plates should be pressure loaded. I would be looking at the seal under the plate. Also was there a check ball and spring anywhere in those motors?

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How many gallons per minute is the pump?  How many gallons of oil in the tank? Is the oil getting hot  because of no cooler and tank not big enough?

There is some formula for the the amount of gpm and oil reserve. Maybe the Tank should be double what the pump can pump.

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Not that it helps your situation but ive been in your predictament regarding budget - got a scrapped se15 15' rhino batwing been fixing as budget allows - almost ready to fire it up in a month or two when it cools off i have had to get a new divider gearbox - u joints - slip clutches - pto shafts - and even with all that not counting my time i will be in it for less than 3k - biggest $$ was the divider gearbox at $1250 - i remember this tractor n mower thing from a yr or two ago - i dont like the looks of those hydro motors and scaring but i dont know much about hydro motors 

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12 hours ago, snoshoe said:

As stated problem could be in relief valve. I really suspect motor problem. One of those thrust plates should be pressure loaded. I would be looking at the seal under the plate. Also was there a check ball and spring anywhere in those motors?

There is no check ball inside the motors.  There is always room for mistakes but all the seals inside the motors have been replaced.

 

11 hours ago, Timothy56 said:

How many gallons per minute is the pump?  How many gallons of oil in the tank? Is the oil getting hot  because of no cooler and tank not big enough?

There is some formula for the the amount of gpm and oil reserve. Maybe the Tank should be double what the pump can pump.

I don't know the GPM.  If I recall, the tank holds "about" 10/15 gallons HOWEVER if you look at the picture, they have four 'cooling channels' that are part of the frame and oil flows through those as well.  I think the total volume is perhaps as much as 40 gallons.  (interestingly on the newer models, they have a much larger tank and did away with the cooling channels)

 

10 hours ago, searcyfarms said:

Not that it helps your situation but ive been in your predictament regarding budget - got a scrapped se15 15' rhino batwing been fixing as budget allows - almost ready to fire it up in a month or two when it cools off i have had to get a new divider gearbox - u joints - slip clutches - pto shafts - and even with all that not counting my time i will be in it for less than 3k - biggest $$ was the divider gearbox at $1250 - i remember this tractor n mower thing from a yr or two ago - i dont like the looks of those hydro motors and scaring but i dont know much about hydro motors 

Yeah, Mr. Budget carries a pretty heavy hammer....  Funny how easy it is for some to be critical when it's not their wallet doing any of the talking.

I paid $2,000 for this, knew it needed some work and knew I'd be spending a bit....  right after I bought it, I found about 4 hours away, a 20' Schulte but by the time I reached them on the phone, it was gone (I think they were asking $6K).

I don't know enough about the 1066 regarding PTO pressure verses the plates.  I would have presumed the pressure helps clamp the plates to transmit the power....but I would have also presumed that if the plates had some wear and were thinned that you'd need to either apply more pressure or, replace the plates.  Having not thought of the pressure part of the equation, this is why I initially asked about how to see if it was slipping.  Given that the spring measured slightly short when I rebuilt it, I was associating the spring with the clamping pressure, not the hydraulic fluid.  

We've got a birthday party here today.  I only have Saturday/Sunday to work on this type of thing as I'm busy during week.  Wife won't want me to bring this to the driveway to 'ruin' the party, pushing me further behind.  

 

 

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2 hours ago, Coytee said:

but I would have also presumed that if the plates had some wear and were thinned that you'd need to either apply more pressure

No, same pressure. The piston just moves further as the clutches wear, until the piston runs out of travel. Then it starts to slip, and from there it doesn't take very long to totally smoke the clutches.

It's just about impossible to visually tell if the PTO is slipping a little, but when it's obvious, it's obvious. The tractor is roaring away when it should be lugging and the PTO is visibly turning way too slow. OF course you have to have a good idea in your head of what  it SHOULD look like, to tell if it's running way too slowly.

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if i may offer one more thing, in my experience with drive motors running from the same single pump supply, and from a right side/left side perspective - when one motor gets weaker it will be obvious like you see here.

Mind you I have no idea about the bypassing situation for your/plumbing nor a great understanding of loss of flow/bypassing, when my skid steer had a weak motor you had to apply more stick on that side to steer/turn due to the weakness, a complete failure on my family friends case, it only steered one way. The other stick was nearly dead and would barely turn in that direction at all. 

these were both driven off the same supply portion of the pump in both cases. IT would make sense that if one pump motor is weaker things would happen as you are seeing. I know there are guys screaming at their screen saying but there is this valve, this could be the issue, etc......not denying that just relaying my experience. 

I know very little about hydraulics and valves and relief/bypass and how all that works. 

Another Thought woudl be if you question the tractor, drive it all over to a neighbors and hook it up to his machine and see if you get the same experience, let them watch/run it so you dont have to worry if something goes wrong that you broke something ( just in case )  

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The rest of the story:

To those who say I need to junk this and as I recall " buying a good Bush Hog or Schuldte, or whatever fits everyones fancy."

I'll certainly still continue to read selectively what you have to say as I sometimes find it of value and other times...  not as much.  I'm not into buying what fits everone elses fancy, I'd rather do my own research.

That said, I went out today after work.  I was going to swap motors and see what happens...  got to thinking as I looked at it.  I can swap the pressure relief valves easier/faster than the motor so let's start there.  Swapped the outer two (inner one has different relief pressure so it stays).

Noticed that the units seemed to both be intact with no internal seals broken/missing that I could see.  It looks like it comes apart and I did not take it apart (yet).  The outer seal on each had a small slice on it from when it was tightened down.  I presumed that since I see no external leak there, that O-ring is at least good enough for now. 

Went out to cut a swath and "wow".  Couple things changed.

1.  The limp side has now flipped, pretty much confirming that the relief valve is not holding.  The previously limp side is cutting like a bandit and the previous bandit side is now getting limp.  (and to think I was going to buy an entire 15' flexwing for what will be the cost of a new pressure relief!  Well, in fairness, I've decided that I'll probably replace all three of them so I was going to buy an entire 15' flexwing for the cost of three relief valves.  I'm glad I don't listen blindly to everyone I read on the internet, seems they don't always know what they're talking about and jump the gun at times!)

2.  The entire time I've had the mower, it has N.E.V.E.R. made a sound from the relief valves operating.  Today, I hit a thick spot and heard a bit of a whistle that I'd never heard so now I know I've got a valve popping off.

3.  The 1066 has N.E.V.E.R. bogged down with the mower.  I'm guessing it's because the valve was leaking and never fully fighting back (and the older seals that have now been replaced).  I don't know if there was some crud in there or not (I didn't see any) but when I got to a thick spot, the engine got bogged down a bit.  Push clutch, RPM's come back up, I see grass flying, move forward and it's a clean cut.  Meanwhile, the other side was ripping to shreds what came before it.  It's a bit like it's been awakened but still tired on one side (with the now known to be bad relief valve)

4.  Decided that I'll first, take the valves apart.  I have NO idea what's in them, the manual doesn't get into that.  Their commentary is simply to replace them. I'll know more when I dig into them.  If it looks like they can be rebuilt (I have no idea) I'll rebuild them.  Otherwise, I'll just buy new ones and move on.

 

So thinking off the top of my head, I have a VERY ugly hydraulic mower.  Pump has been rebuilt, all motors rebuilt.  Soon, the pressure reliefs will be fixed.  Thing cuts like a bandit when it's not slowed down.  I can turn tractor to it 90 degrees and literally pivot the mower on the inside wheel, making a circle if I want/need to cut it that tight.  I can raise a wing 90 degrees if I want (and I do NOT want to) to cut an embankment.  I DO let it ride up the embankment but I don't raise it to make that happen.  Slapped a new hose on it, rebuilt the lift cylinders and replaced the hydraulic fluid.

I've got about $3,500/$3,800 in it.  I'll bet that would fit some folks fancy.

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I've never seen or even heard of a hydraulic batwing brushog. Interesting.

Just do away with the pump and hook it up to the remote valve!!!

Joking of course.

Thx-Ace 

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near as I can tell, thanks for not shaming me because of my lack of knowledge is fluid flows thru the pressure relief valve if the hi pressure line gets too much against it and oil needs somewhere to go so it goes back to the reservoir/return line? 

dont quote me, just read short snipit on interwebs, so im guessing there are going to be o-rings, a piston/valve of some sort that has a spring providing resistance and when teh pressure in the system overcomes that spring resistance it opens the valve to exhaust some oil to relieve the excess pressure. Maybe the valve is partially stuck open so that relief valve is letting oil bypass and that motor is not getting the proper amount of pressure to drive it hard enough. 

im probably wrong but hey I tried..........id start with the one you moved that made the motor not cut as good that was cutting good, it seems suspect in terms of deduction/logic 

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What brand of mower is this? Like Ace, I’ve never heard of this arrangement either. Glad you seem to have figured it out. I have spent a small fortune on gear box failures in various rotary cutters over the years. Shaft drive can cause a lot of problems too. My main concern with this type of mower would have been lack of cutting power, but it sounds like it works very good. 

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8 hours ago, acem said:

Just do away with the pump and hook it up to the remote valve!!!

My luck I'd attach it to the wrong one!  Heck, I'd probably have to buy yet another mower at everyone's discretion!!

 

8 hours ago, searcyfarms said:

near as I can tell, thanks for not shaming me because of my lack of knowledge is fluid flows thru the pressure relief valve if the hi pressure line gets too much against it and oil needs somewhere to go so it goes back to the reservoir/return line? 

I really don't have any issues here with anyone.  Heck, I even appreciated the comments that J-Mech sometimes gave...  I just see little point in people (in general) trying to be moronic and sanctimonious about things.  If you have something (helpful) to say, say it.  If you want to pick on someone and make them the brunt of a joke so everyone can get a laugh, have at it...  but condescending attitudes aren't very constructive for anyone and really tell more about the person giving them than anyone receiving them.  Especially when you don't know blip about the person.

I did a cursory look around on reliefs...  I'm seeing them in the ballpark of $50/60 though I don't think they're the exact style I need.  I'll ask the hydraulic shop about parts but I might just replace them.

Dirt-Floor-Poor:  I agree with shaft drives can also have their share of problems.  I thought this was a bit different in what it might do for me and got it for 'dirt floor' pricing so didn't have much to lose.  (Cheesy pun intended).  I knew I'd have a learning opportunity in front of me and I've learned a lot.

From what I understand (and I'm by no means any expert about this stuff)  the issue with something like this is the transmission of power sufficient enough to do the job.  Therefore you have to sandwich in what they call a 'speed increaser'.  So I have this thing bolted to the PTO that takes the 540 PTO and increases the speed of it by a factor of four.  This high spinning rate is then what powers the hydraulic pump and I believe that's the key to this working well.  You have to get the hydraulic pressure high enough to work the motors.

Prior to rebuilding the motors (that operate each blade spindle) I could rotate the motors by hand.  After I rebuilt them, I had to take a pipe wrench to them to get enough force on them to turn them (as per the book instructions).

My finish mower will cut the yard/field in front of the house.  If the grass is long, it will leave clippings and some mulching.  This mower pretty much obliterates everything it rolls over (save fallen branches but sometimes those too)  When I was in the field with the grass not cut for 8 months, it was waist high.  When the (good cutting) blade went over it, it was cut, sliced, diced and pretty nicely mulched.  I didn't have any 'ripped out and spit out' long grass to speak of.  It really does seem to be a cutting monster.  

 

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7 hours ago, Dirt_Floor_Poor said:

What brand of mower is this?

Sorry, missed that.

The mower was made as a "Terrain King" brand.  Terrain King was bought by Alamo so now, if you look up an Alamo "Falcon" flexwing mower, that is the evolution of this mower.   This mower was originally bought by the local airport.  I understand that they had 3-5 of them to keep the place taken care of.  For whatever reasons, they sold one or all of them, no clue.  I bought this from the farmer that bought it from the airport.

 

https://www.messicks.com/blog/alamo-falcon-15-flex-wing-mower

 

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AWESOME.   You got the problem part identified!

If the pressure differential across the motor gets too high, the relief valve should pop open to allow oil to bypass the motor.   This is basically a hydraulic version of the slip clutch.   (so, is the real faulty part the one that slips too easy or the one that doesn't slip at all.....)

I would certainly make sure you know the flow rate and pressure specs on the existing relief valves before replacing them.   I would also disassemble and check orings/springs etc.  (Note some relief valves have to be reset after rebuilding....which is a job best left to somebody with a hydraulic test tools.   Why not take the existing valves into your shop that rebuilt the motors, explain the problem, and let them check them out??   Sounds like they did good on the motors.

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30 minutes ago, Jeff-C-IL said:

 I would also disassemble and check orings/springs etc.  (Note some relief valves have to be reset after rebuilding....which is a job best left to somebody with a hydraulic test tools.   Why not take the existing valves into your shop that rebuilt the motors, explain the problem, and let them check them out??   Sounds like they did good on the motors.

Thank you 

1.  I intend to take them apart if for no other reason than I am a highly curious type as to how things work.
2. Didn't know they might need to be reset/calibrated, good to know.  I would have thought you pop them in and consider it a day.
3.  I might end up having to take them to a shop...  but for the good job on the motors.....that was done by me, cold turkey.  I had never seen the inside of one and just dove into it to figure it out.  Like I said, I am a highly curious type and (for good or bad) I'm confident enough in my abilities that really, nothing intimidates me.  It might be TOO MUCH for me to deal with, but I usually discover that after I've taken it apart.

I was very careful and meticulous when I did these so I personally am 100% confident in their current integrity.

I'm probably set for another eye opening event when I finally get new blades on this.  Farmer who sold it to me said they were 20 years old.  (maybe he didn't use it that much?) they do not have that rounded off "butter knife" leading edge.  Still pretty square though a number of dents/nicks in them from hitting rocks over the years.  I wanted to get the operational base of the machine in good order before I potentially wasted money on new blades (and turned out to have worthless motors to drive them)  Now that I know the motors are good, the blades will be next.

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