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new tractor reliability?


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22 hours ago, Cattech said:

Where things are going wrong is on the emissions control. Manufacturers are having to introduce technologies before they have been fully engineered and tested/proven. Just like EFI in the automotive field, this stuff will mature and become more reliable as time goes on. Hopefully the regulators don't move the goalposts again before that reliability comes to fruition. 

 

The US is behind with emissions control compared to Europe, because the unellectect EU bureacrats will enforce the stage V emissions standards and also wan't to kill the combustion engine by legislation in 2035. Also the big concerns are pushing for more tight emission controls in country's like Australia. In my opinion the emission legislation is sneaky way to kill off the diesel engine and making more expensive to operate, also this kind of laws are hurting smaller (engine) manufacturers. 

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And now we are to the point of subservience to the manufacturers that (from what I understand) with the new JD's you can't even start them without having the most up to date subscription to their electronic control systems.

 So, assuming this is the case, if you do not fork over hard earned coin for their electronic systems controls you can't start the tractor to plant, too fertilize, spray harvest a crop that hasn't been planted so that would equal NO food production. That would mean - guess who doesn't get to eat? ? ? Yeah OK, this is progress? And the worse part is we insist on buying this ill engineered crap. Think of all those new trucks & cars sitting in those vacant lots that cannot be sold because they don't have the chips to run the software to make em run = progress? And the acres of electric cars sitting outside that Paris place in France, cause the batteries are shot, and they won't run, and no one will recycle them = progress. But I needn't go on cause everyone here is smart enough to figure this out. Cept me, my IQ is just about the equal to the box that holds the proverbial "box-o rocks".

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On 7/19/2021 at 10:24 AM, New Englander said:

I don't know about farm equipment but perhaps if we look at automobiles there's some hope. Rarely do you see a newer car broken down by the side of the road. The electronics are maturing and way more reliable than in the past.

Having said that: If one does break down there's no roadside fix; it's going to need a scan tool to find out what stopped it. Even then it's unlikely that a single sensor failure will stop them as the computers are smart enough in many cases to use a substitute value to keep going albeit sometimes in limp mode .

One would hope that the manufacturers of machines costing hundreds of thousands will incorporate enough redundancy to not be stopped by a single sensor. In modern aircraft critical systems often have backup sensors or the sensor itself is a dual unit, and alternate computer channels. A malfunction occurs and often it's a push of a button to recover. Engines are controlled by dual channel computers. The controlling channel swaps at each engine start and automagically if one fails. There seems to be little reason not to incorporate the same redundancy in an expensive tractor even if it pushes the price up a little bit. Most airlines learned that a long time ago. Little hurts business more than a 100 million dollar machine loaded with passengers being stopped by a hundred dollar part or a single chip failure in a computer. It screws up everything down the line.

Is it planned obsolescence or short sighted cost controls? Sadly the bean counters get in the way sometimes and decide to save money and not use the best materials available, say not using the best wire and connectors that live in a terrible environment. Perhaps while the engineers are seeking to make the best machine the stockholders are demanding higher dividends and increased profits become more important than the machine's reputation. Maybe?

I don’t think the automotive industry could afford redundancy in their complex electrical systems.  It’s quite different than an airplane that has a failed sensor that could kill 100’s of people whereas an automobile that has a failed sensor is pulled off to the side of the rode to wait for service.

The cheaper is better mentality is coupled with the bean counters overriding the engineers desire for perfection while appeasing corporate boardrooms maximizing profits thereby increasing their own stock portfolios….

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2 hours ago, N S said:

And now we are to the point of subservience to the manufacturers that (from what I understand) with the new JD's you can't even start them without having the most up to date subscription to their electronic control systems.

 So, assuming this is the case, if you do not fork over hard earned coin for their electronic systems controls you can't start the tractor to plant, too fertilize, spray harvest a crop that hasn't been planted so that would equal NO food production. That would mean - guess who doesn't get to eat? ? ? Yeah OK, this is progress? And the worse part is we insist on buying this ill engineered crap. Think of all those new trucks & cars sitting in those vacant lots that cannot be sold because they don't have the chips to run the software to make em run = progress? And the acres of electric cars sitting outside that Paris place in France, cause the batteries are shot, and they won't run, and no one will recycle them = progress. But I needn't go on cause everyone here is smart enough to figure this out. Cept me, my IQ is just about the equal to the box that holds the proverbial "box-o rocks".

According to John Deere you don't own your own tractor. 

https://www.wired.com/2015/04/dmca-ownership-john-deere/

 

Also i think it's illegal to force people to pay for an subscription for a service to use equipment they already bought.

Also according the great reset people are telling us you will own nothing and will be happy.

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7 hours ago, N S said:

And now we are to the point of subservience to the manufacturers that (from what I understand) with the new JD's you can't even start them without having the most up to date subscription to their electronic control systems.

 So, assuming this is the case, if you do not fork over hard earned coin for their electronic systems controls you can't start the tractor to plant, too fertilize, spray harvest a crop that hasn't been planted so that would equal NO food production. That would mean - guess who doesn't get to eat? ? ? Yeah OK, this is progress? And the worse part is we insist on buying this ill engineered crap. Think of all those new trucks & cars sitting in those vacant lots that cannot be sold because they don't have the chips to run the software to make em run = progress? And the acres of electric cars sitting outside that Paris place in France, cause the batteries are shot, and they won't run, and no one will recycle them = progress. But I needn't go on cause everyone here is smart enough to figure this out. Cept me, my IQ is just about the equal to the box that holds the proverbial "box-o rocks".
 

I don't think Deere has that tight of a rein on their equipment. 

But listening to some of the hyperbole coming from some of the overzealous right to repair proponents I can see where one could come to that conclusion.
 

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7 hours ago, Ihfan4life said:

I don’t think the automotive industry could afford redundancy in their complex electrical systems.  It’s quite different than an airplane that has a failed sensor that could kill 100’s of people whereas an automobile that has a failed sensor is pulled off to the side of the rode to wait for service.

The cheaper is better mentality is coupled with the bean counters overriding the engineers desire for perfection while appeasing corporate boardrooms maximizing profits thereby increasing their own stock portfolios….

I don't expect it at all in a  $40,000 automobile  but in a piece of equipment costing 100s of thousands, yes. An expensive tractor or construction equipment should not be brought to a halt for a minor failure.

The redundancy in airplanes often is more for dispatch reliability in addition to safety. A quick example would be a what you may consider a tachometer. There often will be both a digital and analogue indication driven by two different sources. It's really no big deal to loose a single source indication in flight as the power can be set by say matching the engines second spool with the other engines or by fuel flow or temperature, but, once on the ground, that's it. With two sources though, by means of the minimum equipment list (MEL) you can dispatch, so a multi-million dollar piece of equipment isn't out of service. Having all that redundancy lets the flights continue, often with a time limitation to fix it.

The minimum equipment list is a rather large document with varying requirements. Some are simple that can be pilot actions, others require maintenance actions and test equipment but the point is to keep the equipment moving safely.

Off the point but interesting is the CDL, or configuration deviation list. It allows continued operation with a minor part actually missing. Something simple like service doors that get left partially latched by fuelers, lavatory service guys, ramp guys, etc. The part gets broken off or blows off somewhere, hopefully on the airport and not in your backyard but doesn't really have much of an effect on flight. Often there's  a minor weight penalty attached - loss of a ground power service door might cost you 10 lbs of payload, etc. This is totally off point but few outside the industry are aware that planes can be flying legally with pieces missing. Manufacturers actually test fly the planes, especially airliners with those service doors, etc., missing.

Electronics are relatively cheap and that's why vehicles are full of them. We, and manufactures have become do dependent upon them that the current chip shortage has ripple effects throughout various industries - Ford being hit especially hard.

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8 hours ago, jordi 1455 said:

 

Also i think it's illegal to force people to pay for an subscription for a service to use equipment they already bought.

 

Not sure how it is in Europe, but in the US farmers have paid subscriptions to be able to use GPS receivers for 15 years or better. Lots of prescription farming applications use a subscription fee of some sort.

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2 hours ago, New Englander said:

This is totally off point but few outside the industry are aware that planes can be flying legally with pieces missing. Manufacturers actually test fly the planes, especially airliners with those service doors, etc., missing.

O/T but depends where it goes missing - as with that Concorde crash

"The investigation revealed that the plane that took off just prior to Flight 4590 had dropped a piece of metal onto the runway. When the Concorde jet ran over it, its tire was shredded and thrown into one of the engines and fuel tanks, causing a disabling fire."

https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/concorde-jet-crashes

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Most equipment manufacturers have some form of mobile link that you can optionally pay for. I'm not aware of any company making it mandatory or their product not operating with out of date software.

I will take our Cat Product Link for example. We have various levels of connectability available at different price points. Basic coverage gives the machine location, hours, and if it is in use. We have many customers who have opted to retrofit this to older equipment for tracking maintenance and useage. A premium subscription on a new machine can report fuel useage, fault codes, operational abuse, production totals, etc.... Then we have a monitoring center keeping an eye out for problems... we can be mobilizing service support before the operator or owner even knows something is wrong.

As high tech as this seems, I can't fix or update anything off site. It's a one way communication. I've read some manufacturers are playing with over air updates, but I don't know of anyone integrating it yet.

I've written at length on the right to repair topic in other posts and won't go into it again. There's a ton of misinformation, exaggeration & misunderstanding being spread on the subject. It's has become a political issue and as bad as a RPF oil thread.

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What kind of oil is best for the new equipment??

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7 hours ago, Cattech said:

Most equipment manufacturers have some form of mobile link that you can optionally pay for. I'm not aware of any company making it mandatory or their product not operating with out of date software.

I will take our Cat Product Link for example. We have various levels of connectability available at different price points. Basic coverage gives the machine location, hours, and if it is in use. We have many customers who have opted to retrofit this to older equipment for tracking maintenance and useage. A premium subscription on a new machine can report fuel useage, fault codes, operational abuse, production totals, etc.... Then we have a monitoring center keeping an eye out for problems... we can be mobilizing service support before the operator or owner even knows something is wrong.

As high tech as this seems, I can't fix or update anything off site. It's a one way communication. I've read some manufacturers are playing with over air updates, but I don't know of anyone integrating it yet.

I've written at length on the right to repair topic in other posts and won't go into it again. There's a ton of misinformation, exaggeration & misunderstanding being spread on the subject. It's has become a political issue and as bad as a RPF oil thread.

Our planes make a phone call to the manufacturer, for lack of a better term, as soon as we touch down, containing trend monitoring for the previous flight. It will spot say, an engine that has begun to loose temperature margins long before any deterioration becomes obvious.

If we have any issues in flight, the cause of which is not obvious, the first thing maintenance will ask for is a download of the FHDB or fault history database. It's amazing just what the plane knows and has stored in the CMC - central maintenance computer. The CMC will actually propose likely components at fault.

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7 hours ago, Ian Beale said:

O/T but depends where it goes missing - as with that Concorde crash

"The investigation revealed that the plane that took off just prior to Flight 4590 had dropped a piece of metal onto the runway. When the Concorde jet ran over it, its tire was shredded and thrown into one of the engines and fuel tanks, causing a disabling fire."

https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/concorde-jet-crashes

Yeah, That was a sad day. Not a service door or anything covered by a CDL but a big piece of titanium from an engine.

On a lighter note. I was taking a picture of a fleeting message on the multifunction display yesterday and due to untimely turbulence I accidentally took a few pics of the other display while getting the iPad in position. We often take pictures of messages for maintenance, especially fleeting ones.

Anyway, I spotted this just now. You have an intersection named after you right next to Las Vegas.

Beale.jpg

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My friend has a 2019 new Holland excavator that refused to go into a burn cycle , dealer too busy to come , ended up having to take it over, said they did some programing and it took over an hour at 2000 rpm to complete a cycle. And at least 2 whole days lost, the one on the job they couldn’t do and the one to haul it to Greenwich . We have not made progress in reliability with all these emissions. 

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^^ I won't say we're there yet, not by a long shot. But, compare an emissions compliant diesel from 2010 and compare it to one from 2020 and tell me progress hasn't been made.

I remember my dad pulling the tbi off his truck and installing a carb because he couldn't work on it.... damn pos fuel injection bs! Nowadays, he couldn't start a stubborn carbureted vehicle to save his life and would say, damn carb pos bs!

 

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34 minutes ago, Cattech said:

compare an emissions compliant diesel from 2010 and compare it to one from 2020 and tell me progress hasn't been made.

Tell that to the guy who just paid 3 men salaries to jerk around for 2 days while a brand new machine was down for software glitches.. i remain unimpressed. 

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5 minutes ago, vtfireman85 said:

Tell that to the guy who just paid 3 men salaries to jerk around for 2 days while a brand new machine was down for software glitches.. i remain unimpressed. 

+1, I would prefer to live in the 1990's..............$hit just worked and was reliable for the most part, didn't pollute a ton either................

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7 hours ago, New Englander said:

I accidentally took a few pics

FL450?

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4 minutes ago, Red Flyer said:

FL450?

Yeah, LA to Denver, relatively light so direct climb to 450, m.85

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8 hours ago, New Englander said:

Anyway, I spotted this just now. You have an intersection named after you right next to Las Vegas.

"Wasn't me, sir"

But - "Beale" is a surname where you should insist on the correct spelling as there are at least 7 other versions which sound the same.  Ours seems to be the least common from my "world wide telephone book surveys" and seems to originate in the West Country of UK.  A great uncle migrated to US  - which may have no connection what-so-ever to that

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