neukm Posted July 15, 2021 Share Posted July 15, 2021 What would be causing excessive valve guide wear on a DTI466 ? Excessive to the point of dropping #2 exhaust valve in less than 1,000 hours. Engine serial number 468 B T2 U422441 My (reputable) machine shop says he typically sees this type of valve guide wear in over 5,000 hours and it has to be an oiling issue. Rocker shaft and tappets check out okay. Oil passage on rear of block which feeds the rocker appears to be fine. Oil passage to rear cam bushing appears to be lined up with oiling slot in cam bushing. Oil pressure is/was very good. thanks for any help, but go easy, just a farmer trying to turn wrenches ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snoshoe Posted July 15, 2021 Share Posted July 15, 2021 This engine is after my time BUT is the wear general? Or just one or two valves? If it's just a couple. The problem is the rocker or rocker shaft. I suspect oil holes in shaft have little to no camfer. Allowing rocker to shut off oil. Enlarging chamfer increases surface area. Allowing oil pressure to push rocker away from shaft. The rockers they used to use didn't bother lube but if they have changed. You'll have to watch them work to make sure oil reaches valve. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neukm Posted July 15, 2021 Author Share Posted July 15, 2021 Well, he said all of the exhaust guides were badly worn, with #2 being the worst, obviously, and the intake guides had substantial wear also which he said he rarely sees. thanks for the reply Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RAH Posted July 15, 2021 Share Posted July 15, 2021 Be sure you have correct head gasket. Oil passage is different from an early one to a late one. My guess is there is no oil getting to top. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neukm Posted July 15, 2021 Author Share Posted July 15, 2021 2 minutes ago, RAH said: Be sure you have correct head gasket. Oil passage is different from an early one to a late one. My guess is there is no oil getting to top. Looking at the top deck of the block, it appears the correct gasket was in place.... wouldn't the rocker shaft have a lot of wear if it had no oil? thanks for the reply Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hippy5488 Posted July 15, 2021 Share Posted July 15, 2021 a lot of the new guides tend to be made of a softer material than the old ones. have run into this twice in the last few years. both of them where tw ford engines no IH though. also had one that was running high egt for prolonged period of time that wiped out guides. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neukm Posted July 15, 2021 Author Share Posted July 15, 2021 55 minutes ago, hippy5488 said: a lot of the new guides tend to be made of a softer material than the old ones. have run into this twice in the last few years. both of them where tw ford engines no IH though. also had one that was running high egt for prolonged period of time that wiped out guides. Is there a brand or source of known better quality guides? thank you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IHC_1470 Posted July 15, 2021 Share Posted July 15, 2021 What is the application of the engine? In truck applications if they had an exhaust brake installed you could see guide wear. The claim was excessive back pressure was causing it. Do not know if that was really true or not. Just a thought. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neukm Posted July 15, 2021 Author Share Posted July 15, 2021 2 hours ago, IHC_1470 said: What is the application of the engine? In truck applications if they had an exhaust brake installed you could see guide wear. The claim was excessive back pressure was causing it. Do not know if that was really true or not. Just a thought. It's in a 5488 mfwd which gets used pretty hard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lars (midessa) Posted July 16, 2021 Share Posted July 16, 2021 18 hours ago, neukm said: It's in a 5488 mfwd which gets used pretty hard. Sounds like the perfect time to toss this grenade= are you using IH No.1 30wt.? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neukm Posted July 16, 2021 Author Share Posted July 16, 2021 30 minutes ago, Lars (midessa) said: Sounds like the perfect time to toss this grenade= are you using IH No.1 30wt.? Yep Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tractorholic Posted July 16, 2021 Share Posted July 16, 2021 On 7/14/2021 at 9:15 PM, neukm said: What would be causing excessive valve guide wear on a DTI466 ? Excessive to the point of dropping #2 exhaust valve in less than 1,000 hours. Engine serial number 468 B T2 U422441 My (reputable) machine shop says he typically sees this type of valve guide wear in over 5,000 hours and it has to be an oiling issue. Rocker shaft and tappets check out okay. Oil passage on rear of block which feeds the rocker appears to be fine. Oil passage to rear cam bushing appears to be lined up with oiling slot in cam bushing. Oil pressure is/was very good. thanks for any help, but go easy, just a farmer trying to turn wrenches ? I am curious if this is a cnh reman motor since you said there are 1000 hrs on the engine or if you rebuilt it locally? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neukm Posted July 16, 2021 Author Share Posted July 16, 2021 3 hours ago, tractorholic said: I am curious if this is a cnh reman motor since you said there are 1000 hrs on the engine or if you rebuilt it locally? Well... it's a long story that I thought might take the thread off into the weeds so I kept it short in my OP. It was rebuilt locally.. but there's more to the story, as there always is. Summer of 2016 I had leaky exhaust manifold gaskets, got them replaced and broke a bolt tightening the thermostat housing. (uGHH) By the time I got that bolt extracted, the threads in the head were ruined, I stuck in a stud and welded it in place to get it running for fall season. Next winter, (Jan 2017) removed the head and the aforementioned machine shop sent this head off to another shop to fix the threads, the second shop sent it back, said it can't be fixed. Sooo... I bought a used head from LKQ truck parts and took it to my (reputable) machine shop to have it gone through and surface ground. In framed the engine, went back together just fine, ran and pulled very well...except..the (Reliance) head gasket was leaking externally in like 3 places. Feb of 2020 I stuck in a new gasket which sealed up the leaks perfectly. As of now, I can't be sure that the Reliance gasket was the correct one for a C series. So now I take the head to the shop and he calls me wondering if we REALLY put in guides last time...his heat tag is not on the head, there's a different tag in a place where he never puts them. Well...idk, 12 guides are on the invoice. Again, this is a good shop that does good work. But we all make mistakes, overlook things. It's possible that he thought I bought a reconditioned head and just brought it to him to have it checked over. idk So, I'm doing a complete out of frame overhaul, but can't find anything that would've caused the problem. like I said, go easy on me lol ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R190 Posted July 16, 2021 Share Posted July 16, 2021 I have seen excessive guide wear on tractor where they put aftermarket guide seals on , as "they came with the kit". 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FARMALL FIXER Posted July 16, 2021 Share Posted July 16, 2021 2 hours ago, R190 said: I have seen excessive guide wear on tractor where they put aftermarket guide seals on , as "they came with the kit". I think you are on to something here . With seals the guides are running too dry . I dont use the valve seals on my overhauls on turbocharged engines . The cylinders have air pressure in them on both the intake and exhaust strokes controlling excessive oil going past the guides . Never had an oil consumption problem by not putting in the seals . Just my 2 cents worth . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Binderoid Posted July 17, 2021 Share Posted July 17, 2021 Just out of curiosity, how did the valve get in there? Head break off? Strip the keys? Stem break below the retainer? While the the valve striking the seat crooked when nearly closed is less than ideal, it is possible that you have unrelated coincidences here. After all , valves do fail when everything is running straight and true. Like the one pictured. There comes a point in time that the valves and springs and keys should be thrown away in high- time engines, or, in your case, a head of unknown origin, to minimize the possibility of a fatigue failure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tractorholic Posted July 17, 2021 Share Posted July 17, 2021 14 hours ago, neukm said: of now, I can't be sure that the Reliance gasket was the correct one for a C series Do you think its possible that this gasket could have started your problem? Maybe something wasnt right with it causing the upper end of engine being starved oil? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neukm Posted July 17, 2021 Author Share Posted July 17, 2021 8 hours ago, Binderoid said: Just out of curiosity, how did the valve get in there? Head break off? Strip the keys? Stem break below the retainer? While the the valve striking the seat crooked when nearly closed is less than ideal, it is possible that you have unrelated coincidences here. After all , valves do fail when everything is running straight and true. Like the one pictured. There comes a point in time that the valves and springs and keys should be thrown away in high- time engines, or, in your case, a head of unknown origin, to minimize the possibility of a fatigue failure. Well, a little over half way through planting season this spring, it started blowing by out the breather and steadily got a little worse. With no fall back option, I decided to keep running it as long as possible. It almost made it, only 40 acres of field cultivating left. The valve ended up embedded in the piston in two pieces, I think it broke. The guide was so far gone that there was a worn spot on the top of the liner where the valve was rubbing! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neukm Posted July 17, 2021 Author Share Posted July 17, 2021 1 hour ago, tractorholic said: Do you think its possible that this gasket could have started your problem? Maybe something wasnt right with it causing the upper end of engine being starved oil? That is a possibility, yes. I just don't know either way though. It was in there for close to 600 hours.... wouldn't there be some serious wear on the rockers if they weren't getting oiled? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daves Diesel Posted July 17, 2021 Share Posted July 17, 2021 I did a KTA Cummins a wile back and after 200 hrs the guides were so loose that exhaust leaked up thru them put it together 2 times the 3rd time I used Cummins valves and guides and that took care of it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neukm Posted July 18, 2021 Author Share Posted July 18, 2021 I'm very much a proponent of using OEM parts. But in the case of IH engines, what brand is OEM quality? I've been told by the best CaseIH parts guy I know that the parts they sell are Reliance. I'm certain that CNHi is not manufacturing parts for IH 400 series engines. So in this case, which brand of valve guides are good quality and which ones are not? Thank you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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