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Navistar international is no more


R190
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On 7/14/2021 at 3:19 PM, DaveinSD said:

As for the comment about management at Navistar should have learned from the mistakes of the late 70’s and early 80’s, the big issue was that most of the Harvester guys were long gone by the time the current problems developed. My dad retired in 2010 and was one of the last Harvester holdovers still in management. And again telling, dad was passed over for one last promotion and the position was given to a young guy who had showed little in the way of competence. The given reasoning was that the kid had a college degree and dad did not, however dad had been with Harvester for 41 years and started when he was 18. Just an example of how things were being run and how post 2000 there was a concerted effort to get the old Harvester guys who had the experience and the knowledge of what went wrong to retire. There were lots of mistakes made, but Navistar was in a great position up through the mid to late 2000’s, and the engine fiasco was what ultimately broke them. Dad blames that one on the CEO, as he insisted on continuing on an incorrect path when all the engine guys were saying the opposite. I will also add that as much of the stock got bought up by industrial investors, they were more interested in making a quick buck than investing in making a profitable company for another 100 years.

Man I can really relate to that. It seems as though corporations will hire only college grads no matter what they majored in or got their degree in as opposed to those that earned their stripes by actually getting hands on experience. 

A number of years ago I was applying for semi driving jobs cause that was all that seemed to be available at the time. They all wanted someone that had graduated from a "driving school" even though I had 30 years of experience driving every conceivable combination known and well over 3 million miles. The excuse was that I had not driven steadily for about 4-5 years. What they were saying is that they didn't want someone with experience like your dad, who actually had experience making things work, but someone they could train to their corporate dictates. Somewhat like if you sit down for an hour you'll forget how to walk. Thats their mentality. And closer and closer to the drain hole we go.

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On 7/13/2021 at 10:36 PM, 806 man said:

How many $100 of millions did the MaxForce POS cost them in repairs/buybacks and lawsuits? Took the profit right out of it.

Yup, bet they thought their 560 days were behind them, with selling off the ag line

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560 days...good one....this has really torn me up though......Dan Ustain started with IHC in the 70’s.....this old mindset of top down was still with the company.....how can this happen twice to the same company......I’ve given up on our heritage.....Cyrus SR and Cyrus JR would be so sad......one of our oldest truck manufactures gone....just like that....leaves only Paccar as US owned and John Deere on the AG side.....such a sad ending ......but how can this happen...????????????

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9 hours ago, 401 N Michigan said:

560 days...good one....this has really torn me up though......Dan Ustain started with IHC in the 70’s.....this old mindset of top down was still with the company.....how can this happen twice to the same company......I’ve given up on our heritage.....Cyrus SR and Cyrus JR would be so sad......one of our oldest truck manufactures gone....just like that....leaves only Paccar as US owned and John Deere on the AG side.....such a sad ending ......but how can this happen...????????????

  Lessons do not stay with people very long in a lot of instances.  Honestly, I doubt that a vast majority of people who ran Navistar are aware of anything that far back.  Especially, those who are under 60 years of age.  I doubt that most people in JD senior management today are aware of the golden era involving the 4020, 4430, and 4440. It's not how they were educated and not how they think in general.  

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24 minutes ago, 766 Man said:

I doubt that most people in JD senior management today are aware of the golden era involving the 4020, 4430, and 4440. It's not how they were educated and not how they think in general. 


I have to disagree about John Deere. I see a lot of people who don’t like John Deere and their practices, but they know how to take care of the people that pay the bills. Small operations are not at the core of John Deere’s Ag business anymore. I deal with a lot of manufactures equipment and Deere’s dealership network and parts distribution are second to none. There is no where else that I can order a part at 5:30 on Friday night and have it at 7:00 on Saturday morning. With very a minimal freight bill. They probably have better old machinery parts availability than anybody except maybe Caterpillar. They have been slow to adopt some technology, but they don’t seem to want to make a major blunder and let someone else get their foot in the door. 

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25 minutes ago, Dirt_Floor_Poor said:


I have to disagree about John Deere. I see a lot of people who don’t like John Deere and their practices, but they know how to take care of the people that pay the bills. Small operations are not at the core of John Deere’s Ag business anymore. I deal with a lot of manufactures equipment and Deere’s dealership network and parts distribution are second to none. There is no where else that I can order a part at 5:30 on Friday night and have it at 7:00 on Saturday morning. With very a minimal freight bill. They probably have better old machinery parts availability than anybody except maybe Caterpillar. They have been slow to adopt some technology, but they don’t seem to want to make a major blunder and let someone else get their foot in the door. 

  John Deere does some things quite well such as parts distribution.  Financing.  I don't like the heavy consolidation of the dealer network.  I doubt that the average senior manager reflects upon the history of the 4020 on a daily basis.  

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John Deere is a marketing and advertising God!!!    They know how to make people pay for green paint......and always have.

Brand association alone is huge......every small town kid has a JD hat......

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4 hours ago, Mr. Plow said:

John Deere is a marketing and advertising God!!!    They know how to make people pay for green paint......and always have.

Brand association alone is huge......every small town kid has a JD hat......

  I don't think that has much to do with it.  JD has offered financing on products for many decades now.  During the depths of the Great Depression they were the only company that went through great pains to avoid repossessing equipment.  John Deere sold equipment during the rough 1980's because they could readily finance purchases.  These sort of things resonate with people especially if you needed extra time to make a payment or found out Farm Credit is not that in love with you anymore to finance a purchase.  Maybe somebody can honestly tell me otherwise but what I have heard IH was quite hardlined during the Great Depression in terms of late payments or needing to rework financing for customers.  

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15 hours ago, Dirt_Floor_Poor said:


I have to disagree about John Deere. I see a lot of people who don’t like John Deere and their practices, but they know how to take care of the people that pay the bills. Small operations are not at the core of John Deere’s Ag business anymore. I deal with a lot of manufactures equipment and Deere’s dealership network and parts distribution are second to none. There is no where else that I can order a part at 5:30 on Friday night and have it at 7:00 on Saturday morning. With very a minimal freight bill. They probably have better old machinery parts availability than anybody except maybe Caterpillar. They have been slow to adopt some technology, but they don’t seem to want to make a major blunder and let someone else get their foot in the door. 

lots of truth to that when the Deere tractor we had that we bought used it had a early version of the IVT transmission. The tractor was a 2004 model, if I can remember we bought it in 2009 or 2010 and a view years later the transmission went and it got fixed but it had no warranty on it anymore but Deere and Company said they will pay some of the bill if the Dealership pays the other half which they did. Sadly our Deere dealership sucks but Deere products are one of the best. 

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with the end of this great company sounds almost like what happened to the Swiss Truck manufacture that was one of the Pioneers when it came to Diesel trucks and engine brakes and etc which was Saurer. They shut down truck manufacturing in the 1980s and sold there bus line off to the NAW company which was owned by Mercedes Benz. Even NAW is gone. The only thing left of the Saurer Diesel engine is there R+D shop which is owned by the Parent company of FIAT. All new New Holland and Case IH tractors have that engine design from Arbon in em now. Anyway the thing that is left of Saurer is the textile division which is owned by a Chinese company since 2010s. 

 

-Urs

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forgot to mention that the german MAN company was founded when they took over the plant and productline of the Saurer factory in Germany, kinda what happened at the same time in the US to the Saurer overseas division that became Mack trucks. 

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oh should say this what brought Saurer down was its management not listing to its engineers and didn't want a partnership with Mercedes Benz. The Saurer trucks where well made but the Cab sucked it was loud in them and that was what the engineers wanted to update or work with Benz on that but one thing we Swiss have which is a kinda a downer is when we invent something and have a good product and a german company wants to work with us we (maybe shouldn't say we all the time lol) its like no its my baby and no go. Same thing happened with the SWISSAIR company the flagship of Swiss companies, Lufthansa wanted Swissair to join the Star Alliance and back then Swissair owned hotels and one of the best servicing facilities for aircraft in Europe (this divsion now owned by China) and etc. Well went down flat then got a name change to Swiss and because Swiss management sucked was sold by the Swiss government to Lufthansa and became profitable again. The only aircraft still under the Swissair name is a DC-3. 

sorry of drifting off topic here but mismanagement of companies happens all over and always to good ones too!

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On 7/12/2021 at 1:35 PM, R190 said:

Got a letter with paper work listing my   Navistar stock certificates today telling me to send them in and they will send me a check. Without interest of course. End of an era ! I wonder how long that will take.

 

Not related to you....  this is a general comment.

As a practical matter, you (speaking in general, not directed to you specifically) don't ever want to hold physical certificates in your hands or safe deposit box/other.  If you have one, you might have several (certificates)

Why?

Say that a train hits you and now you are plowing the great fields in the sky, what happens?

Someone (during a sad time because of your loss) has to find the certificate, get a death certificate, get a Letter of Testamentary and possibly an Affidavit of Domicile.  Send all this legal paperwork in with the certificate so it can be put into an account and then, distributed (perhaps per the Will)

Thing is, what if you have 20 different stocks?  (as in 20 different companies)  Now your survivor has to do this 20 different times.

Having helped people with this over the years, let me be blunt.....  you are going to put them through a GRIND.  What I tell people is "if you are mad at your spouse/child (whomever will settle your estate) and you want to get one last final poke in their eye, then leave it as it is....because you are making it as difficult as possible for them......if instead, you love them and want to make things much more easy....  then deposit those shares into an account via your SIGNATURE (verses them getting all sorts of legal documents) and then on that account, put whomever down as a "TOD" (Transfer on Death) BENEFICIARY and totally avoid probate for these shares of stock.

I just cringe when I hear about people holding shares.....  generally speaking, they do not know the mess they are sitting on that they can totally fix with a couple strokes of their pen verses forcing their loved ones the hassle of going through the legal document process and then probate with it.

I know that nobody here really knows me....nor likely really cares and I'm fine with that if that's the reality.

Of what experience do I speak?

I've been in the financial industry for 34 years and have come across this situation far too many times.

If you love your loved ones, heed the above.  If instead, you're holding a grudge on them and want to put them through the grind when you're gone, don't change a thing!

Also, if you decide to make that new brokerage account joint with a child (for example) so the funds are theirs on your passing, DON'T do that either.  You want them to INHERIT the stock, not have them gifted.  If you put their name on said account, you are giving them half the shares AND half of your cost basis.  You want them to get the stepped up cost basis at (your) death.

None of the above is investment advice, just a PSA trying to offer some of my experience back to those who's wisdom I've tried to absorb.  

If anyone has any questions, I'm happy to explain further.

You may now go about your daily business.

 

 

 

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I didn't add that some of that required paperwork has to be court certified AND that stamp has to be less than (if I recall) 60 days old.  So if you get a Letter of Testamentary, get it stamped.....then find out your state requires you to ALSO have a Tax Waiver......and you send off for that and it takes 61 days to arrive, you have to march BACK to the court to get another form that's not stale.  If you don't know this, send everything it, it gets rejected and you're starting from scratch.

I once had a guy come to office and certificates were in:

1.  Fathers name (passed away 20 years prior)

2.  Joint with Mother (who just then passed) and Father

3.  Mother alone

 

The Joint mother/father shares took about six MONTHS to fix because he had to go back to reopen his fathers estate since his mother never fixed it.

Was a mess.

 

Don't.  Just don't.

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The Forbes article basically says the CEO told the engineers he wanted them to think outside the box and do  things his way.  The engineers told him they had thought outside the box and what he wanted wouldn't work.  The CEO pulled rank and told them to make it work.  They couldn't- not for lack of trying, but because the CEO had been wrong from getgo. There went the whole shebang.

 

It's one thing for someone like the first Henry Ford, who was a mechanical genius, to try to impose his will on the engineering department  and another for a guy who spent his whole career managing people and money- in short, *not* an engineer- to do that.

 

It is just amazing how often that happens in this world, though.

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3 hours ago, 234-IA said:

The Forbes article basically says the CEO told the engineers he wanted them to think outside the box and do  things his way.  The engineers told him they had thought outside the box and what he wanted wouldn't work.  The CEO pulled rank and told them to make it work.  They couldn't- not for lack of trying, but because the CEO had been wrong from getgo. There went the whole shebang.

 

It's one thing for someone like the first Henry Ford, who was a mechanical genius, to try to impose his will on the engineering department  and another for a guy who spent his whole career managing people and money- in short, *not* an engineer- to do that.

 

It is just amazing how often that happens in this world, though.

  When you look around it is amazing that a company lasts 100 years.  The chances for error are great every time there is a change at the top.  The top of every division or section for that matter.  Around here there is a grocery chain named Wegman's that has been around since 1916.  Being complete in offerings on the shelf and having a high regard for its employees were two corner stones for its success.  Success is not easy in a business that tends to operate on a margin of 1-2 percent.  All this came to change after the elder owner died around a decade ago.  Today Wegman's tends to streamline what is on the shelf and the employees are simply considered labor.  Do they need to this to face the headwinds of the lowest common denominator of an operation like Walmart?  Do they see the future?  Will somebody else take advantage with Wegman's more or less following the herd?  With the desire to make inroads in affluent markets such as the big cities in the Eastern US will they give up on their Western and Central NY roots?    

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On 7/22/2021 at 2:53 PM, N S said:

Man I can really relate to that. It seems as though corporations will hire only college grads no matter what they majored in or got their degree in as opposed to those that earned their stripes by actually getting hands on experience. 

A number of years ago I was applying for semi driving jobs cause that was all that seemed to be available at the time. They all wanted someone that had graduated from a "driving school" even though I had 30 years of experience driving every conceivable combination known and well over 3 million miles. The excuse was that I had not driven steadily for about 4-5 years. What they were saying is that they didn't want someone with experience like your dad, who actually had experience making things work, but someone they could train to their corporate dictates. Somewhat like if you sit down for an hour you'll forget how to walk. Thats their mentality. And closer and closer to the drain hole we go.

  The corporate world today is a mess.  For the time I did it "right" by going to Cornell for a degree.  But today it seems like I went to clown school while the guy who flunked out of Podunk U gets the serious consideration.  Upper management lives in fear of a new well educated guy showing them up then showing them out the door.  Then there is the management that so prizes unique education and experience that they prize a guy who graduated college with with a degree in painting with their toes.

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Good content, even the Yogi comment. It’s all leading to government taking over everything....I once started a thread on here about original stock companies and who knew any.....like, Navistar was, Ford, John Deere, Cat...a few mentioned snap on tools.....I can’t remember the others...

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2 hours ago, jeeper61 said:

We left a boat load of these behind hopefully the Maxforce engines hydrolock from the problem with EGR cooler and put them out of service

U.S. Military Trucks Popular With Overseas Customers

Does the military version even have an egr cooler? The local Ford dealer had some national guard vehicles in their shop a while back and they were stripped down engines. They didn’t have a bunch of the emission controls on them that I knew the consumer version did. 

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29 minutes ago, Dirt_Floor_Poor said:

Does the military version even have an egr cooler? The local Ford dealer had some national guard vehicles in their shop a while back and they were stripped down engines. They didn’t have a bunch of the emission controls on them that I knew the consumer version did. 

govt is exempt from ALL laws and would only apply to peone's in USA even with the weight expect it gets 7> mpg

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