1974 International TD-8E, looking for Info

[Koot Kraftsman]

I was re-reading the cylinder repair directions in the manuals and where it refers to torque for the piston nut it speaks of "type 8, phe coated at 330-370 ft lbs" OR "type 5 cad. coated at 450-500 ft lbs".  How would I know which one my machine has? Will it be blatantly obvious when I get in there, like it says it right on the nut?

Also, the retaining ring is 600-650 ft lbs of torque... I don't know of any tool that could accurately measure torque applied to the retaining ring, at least not one the general public would have.  BTW, the manual states to use a "spanner or chain wrench" for removal of the retaining ring.  Since I'm guessing most people don't have spanner or chain wrenches capable of measuring torque at all, never mind 600 ft lbs or even a regular torque wrench capable of reading 330 ft lbs (although this would be much more common in shops that people like you and I run out of) is the consensus just to use common sense and torque the crap out of it?  My impact wrench has a max torque of 700 ft lbs, so I could use my biggest regular torque wrench that goes up to 250 ft lbs and use the impact to get the other 80 maybe using the mid setting, I'll have to look into that.  But when it comes to the retaining ring, outside of tightening the dog crap out of it and guessing, the best I can come up with is to mark the depth on the threads where the retaining ring is currently at then make witness marks across both the ring and the cylinder along it's axis and crank it on until everything lines back up to where it is currently torqued to.  I know that's not the perfect solution but will at least get me way closer than guessing.  Thoughts??  

[hardtail]

3/4” torque wrench will do 600 ft lbs, that will probably be it’s max, don’t know if you would be able to use in that application? They have torque multipliers also, isn’t cadmium gold plated, I’m thinking sphincter twitching with the appropriate snipe should be good to go

[Kevingweq]

Just get em good n tite

[Koot Kraftsman]

3 hours ago, Kevingweq said:

Just get em good n tite

 

3 hours ago, hardtail said:

3/4” torque wrench will do 600 ft lbs, that will probably be it’s max, don’t know if you would be able to use in that application? They have torque multipliers also, isn’t cadmium gold plated, I’m thinking sphincter twitching with the appropriate snipe should be good to go

👍🏻

💪🏼🔧

[Redwood]

This is what I used to torque the final drives on my TD14 (720 ft lbs).  Had to fabricate the custom socket.  The torque system was designed to torque down helicopter rotor hubs, good for 1200 ft lbs.  100:1 gearing.

[Koot Kraftsman]

3 hours ago, Redwood said:

This is what I used to torque the final drives on my TD14 (720 ft lbs).  Had to fabricate the custom socket.  The torque system was designed to torque down helicopter rotor hubs, good for 1200 ft lbs.  100:1 gearing.

Now that there is some Gucci tooling!  I'll have to put that on my Christmas list.

[Redwood]

Not really at the Gucci level as I found the torque system on Craig's List for $125.00.  Cost more to make the socket.

[Ian Beale]

Check my maths please

200 lbs X 6 foot cheater = 1200 ft lbs?

[Redwood]

Yep, that works, but not nearly as much fun.

[Ian Beale]

11 minutes ago, Redwood said:

Yep, that works, but not nearly as much fun.

You can bounce a couple of times to approximate the fun

[just Dave]

On 8/11/2021 at 7:13 PM, Ian Beale said:

Check my maths please

200 lbs X 6 foot cheater = 1200 ft lbs?

Been doing it that way for years...........0 failures

[just Dave]

Never with a pipe wrench!!!!!!!!!!!

[Koot Kraftsman]

6 hours ago, just Dave said:

Never with a pipe wrench!!!!!!!!!!!

Pipe wrenches is what I'll have Dave, I'd love to use the "right" tool (and I tried with my spanner but it failed).  I plan to use double pipe wrenches to give equal torque to both sides like a tap handle or, well, any other T-wrench.  Best I can do with what I have available.  

[Koot Kraftsman]

Double pipe wrenches with 10' snipe each is what it took to bust 'em loose... time for the fun to begin.

[mmi]

33 minutes ago, Koot Kraftsman said:

Double pipe wrenches with 10' snipe each is what it took to bust 'em loose... time for the fun to begin.

done that and the cans collapsed,? chain wrench

[Koot Kraftsman]

The cylinder bodies survived on mine thank goodness however, upon inspection of the cylinder I have torn apart, the side of it (right in the middle) was smacked at some point in its life and gave it a small dent.  I'm preparing myself for the possibility of a new cylinder if this seal kit either doesn't work, or more likely, fails prematurely but for now I will continue with the seal swap.  Worst case scenario I see is that it fails again and I have to make the decision whether or not to just buy a new cylinder and I'm out the price of the seal kit, best case scenario this fixes the leak and I don't have to worry about it for a long while. 

You can tell these seals/rings are SUPER old as they are just falling apart as I try to remove each piece.  The oil seal itself is being a bear (need to get me a new seal puller) and at first I thought the last guy to replace these put the oil seal in backwards but as I read the manual, it says "the oil seal must be facing out".  Every oil seal I've installed in my life has been with the cavity facing the oil to which it is holding back...what the heck?????????? 

To add to the misery, the kit I bought must be the wrong one, I bought IH-626230C6 and although the parts all look correct for the piston and the outside of the cylinder head, the parts for the inside of the cylinder head do not look right. I could be proven wrong but I don not see the parts I am expecting to see and they don't look like the remnants that I'm picking out, not to mention that there are pieces in the seal kit that are definitely not on this cylinder, I was thinking since the seals are used for many different cylinder models that not all the parts would be used on all cylinders but this is my first seal job so I just spitballing here.

Interestingly, the rod lock nut on the end of the piston rod was backed off by hand!  it was only hand tight... whew!  Dodged a bullet there

The machine is a 1974 (serial number 4420009U005505) with inside arms (6-way).  I am replacing the seals on both of the angle cylinders.

Did I order the wrong seal kit?  Does anyone have the correct seal kit part number or maybe I have the right kit but I'm just looking at it wrong, I suppose that's possible too.

[Koot Kraftsman]

A few more photos of the cylinder to help identify the seal kit I need.  If anyone has done this work to a cylinder same as this one, please share the kit part number.  I am told by one of my parts guys that he's showing a 626230C5 (vs 626230C6 that I ordered and what's in the photos.) 

[Koot Kraftsman]

This is the ring I pulled out of the center of the cylinder head, I believe it is the quad ring. 

 

[Dirt_Floor_Poor]

Someone else may know for sure, but my guess is that the C6 number supersedes the C5 number and is the replacement for the old number. 

[DWF]

That's usually how that works like D_F_P said.

DWF

[Koot Kraftsman]

I agree it sounds logical, only the C6 kit is clearly incorrect and won't work.  I'm thinking maybe the earlier units (mine being toward the end of the 1974 build year) had a different cylinder head than the models that came out later and requires a different kit.  

The only other explanation I can think of is that a previous owner swapped out cylinders from something other than a TD-8E??  If you've done this job before, do the guts look the same as what you had? 

The parts in the book don't even match what comes in the C6 kit though so... 🤦‍♂️ .  Will continue trying to make sense of this but if someone has experience with this, i'd love to hear your thoughts.

[Dirt_Floor_Poor]

A trip to a competent hydraulic shop with all the old seals is probably the best way to get the right parts. Frustrating when the parts catalog doesn’t match what you’ve got. 

[Koot Kraftsman]

3 hours ago, Dirt_Floor_Poor said:

A trip to a competent hydraulic shop with all the old seals is probably the best way to get the right parts. Frustrating when the parts catalog doesn’t match what you’ve got. 

Even harder when what you pull out disintegrates.  Thanks for the advise though, hadn't thought of finding. hyd shop.  The nearest one would likely be in Louisville which is over an hour away but if the trip has a promising outcome it may be not just the best way, but the only way, to get this all sorted out.   

[Koot Kraftsman]

Sorta good news (maybe)... I found the part number in the parts manual (albeit printed in 1980), it calls for 626230c3 (vs ...c6), looking at all the crappy photos online, the kit looks more correct/promising.  

Returned the c6 kits and ordered c3 kits from the same company and crossing my fingers 🙄🤞.  Better news is that the c3 kits were half the price of the c6 kits.  I'll definitely report back the result... no doubt I'm not the first, nor the last to deal with this issue, hopefully helps future readers. 

[Koot Kraftsman]

Ok, got the seals... strike 2.

The C3 kit looks identical to the C6 kit. Neither kit has the inner shaft seal.  I'm beginning to think somewhere along the line, a previous owner put cylinders on there from a different machine or some kind of generic/universal cylinder???  I don't know... I'm spitballing now.  

When I opened up the package the seals came in and looked at them I got pretty irritated as you might imagine so I started looking at the cylinders for some kind of Identifying numbers and all I could find on them was "824". I started trying to find something out about them and came up with nothing solid.  This is apparently past my knowledge base so tomorrow I'm gonna hit up the nearest hydraulic shop and see what they can tell me. 

🤦‍♂️ Frustrating