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Rare JD 4030s


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22 minutes ago, Big Bud guy said:

That was a new one on me, never heard such claims.................I did see/hear about the Komatsu special before, believe it was in Heritage Iron at one point.  

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On 7/3/2021 at 5:41 PM, 766 Man said:

 The 766 takes a lot of flack because it does not put out like the 806.

A 7/16 socket, 7/16 box end, and a screwdriver will make a 7 run with an 806 real quick.  Mine made 105 with very little smoke before we put the charger on it.

The 766 weighed about a ton more than the 4030 but wasn't as nimble.  I always thought of the 766 as a little big tractor, and the 4030 as a big little tractor, if that makes any sense.

Re. the Deere 329, Dad had one in his 4400 and it ran pretty decent.  I'm thinking it was a German motor, but I could be wrong.

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8 hours ago, TP from Central PA said:

That was a new one on me, never heard such claims.................I did see/hear about the Komatsu special before, believe it was in Heritage Iron at one point.  

I really don’t think the cab and transmission would have been of much interest to JD. Allis did have a nice cab though on the 8000s. But case had a good mid mount cab and Massey did also. IhC was working on perfecting theirs so a lot of designs to gather ideas from. A few local guys were all AC farmers one even had the big 4 Wd. They had troubles with the input shaft in trans breaking a couple times so it would surprise me if JD wanted that transmission. Not saying anything bad about AC I would like to have one for collection one day.

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10 hours ago, TP from Central PA said:

That was a new one on me, never heard such claims.................I did see/hear about the Komatsu special before, believe it was in Heritage Iron at one point.  

  Sounds like one big story by a disgruntled AC employee or fan.  I really fail to see a reason that JD would want anything.  Even if JD wanted something JD would have had to run it by the federal court system for anti-trust issues which were a big deal at the time.  Would have made more sense for JD to wait around for AC to go bankrupt then see if the appropriate pieces could be gotten with far less issues.  Further, I doubt that JD would have just written off the 10's of millions that went into developing the 50 series which came out shortly after the AC 8000 series.  Also, even as tough as the early 1980's were JD could come up with 108 million dollars to buy a company.  Heck, if it were that cheap somebody like Ford could have done the same thing.  I don't see the AC cab as this huge proprietary thing that nobody else could develop.  As an ag engineering professor said more than once tractor design really is not all that hard.  Figuring out what the buyer will actually pay for is the most difficult part of engineering a tractor.  That it is a race to the bottom design wise as most customers will pay for minimal features.  That you can design a 24 speed power shift and then see everybody go buy the 12 speed because "it cost far less."  If anything I would think JD would want to buy AC for the emerging R series tech but then JD would be back in federal court because such a move would violate anti-trust laws.  JD buying AC does not make much sense no matter how you look at it.

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I honestly would not have been supprised if JD already had a different cab in the works at that point anyhow?  

You read down through that and the claim was the powershift in question still had a range lever to screw with.................I highly doubt a company with a single stick 15 spd powershift transmission would be interested in one with 3 ranges????

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1 minute ago, TP from Central PA said:

I honestly would not have been supprised if JD already had a different cab in the works at that point anyhow?  

You read down through that and the claim was the powershift in question still had a range lever to screw with.................I highly doubt a company with a single stick 15 spd powershift transmission would be interested in one with 3 ranges????

  I've been told that JD 8000 series development was already in motion by the early 1980's.  Again, I don't see the AC cab as something that absolutely needed to be incorporated into a competing tractor.  Where JD needed help was with combines.  Buying AC would have given JD the R series tech instead of taking the cylinder/walker design another step with the 9000 series.  But it would have never been approved by the Feds.  When JD was looking at Versatile that Feds were demanding that JD give up disproportionally a great amount.  I don't know that the JI Case - IH merger would have been approved if IH was healthy financially.

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38 minutes ago, TP from Central PA said:

I honestly would not have been supprised if JD already had a different cab in the works at that point anyhow?  

 

Their tractors built overseas used cabs more like the competition not the curve type SGB.  So you are correct JD did have experience building “AC” type cabs.

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21 minutes ago, 766 Man said:

  Sounds like one big story by a disgruntled AC employee or fan.  I really fail to see a reason that JD would want anything.  Even if JD wanted something JD would have had to run it by the federal court system for anti-trust issues which were a big deal at the time.  Would have made more sense for JD to wait around for AC to go bankrupt then see if the appropriate pieces could be gotten with far less issues.  Further, I doubt that JD would have just written off the 10's of millions that went into developing the 50 series which came out shortly after the AC 8000 series.  Also, even as tough as the early 1980's were JD could come up with 108 million dollars to buy a company.  Heck, if it were that cheap somebody like Ford could have done the same thing.  I don't see the AC cab as this huge proprietary thing that nobody else could develop.  As an ag engineering professor said more than once tractor design really is not all that hard.  Figuring out what the buyer will actually pay for is the most difficult part of engineering a tractor.  That it is a race to the bottom design wise as most customers will pay for minimal features.  That you can design a 24 speed power shift and then see everybody go buy the 12 speed because "it cost far less."  If anything I would think JD would want to buy AC for the emerging R series tech but then JD would be back in federal court because such a move would violate anti-trust laws.  JD buying AC does not make much sense no matter how you look at it.

The only thing that I can possibly see JD wanting from AC, is the manufacturing capability.  Believe or not Allis had some of the best manufacturing capabilities in the country.  Now that was outside of the agricultural business so I don't know exactly what portion of AC was supposedly being acquired, but to me that manufacturing capability was the crown jewel of AC.

FYI - did you know that AC built a nuclear reactor?

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3 minutes ago, Mudfly said:

The only thing that I can possibly see JD wanting from AC, is the manufacturing capability.  Believe or not Allis had some of the best manufacturing capabilities in the country.  Now that was outside of the agricultural business so I don't know exactly what portion of AC was supposedly being acquired, but to me that manufacturing capability was the crown jewel of AC.

FYI - did you know that AC built a nuclear reactor?

  The only thing is that all the North American farm equipment companies could plainly see that they needed less plant capacity from the 1980's on into the future.  Even for the overseas markets it was important to build in the area that you were selling in to buy favor of the people living there.  Unit sales for any piece of farm equipment was on the decline in North America.

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18 minutes ago, 766 Man said:

  The only thing is that all the North American farm equipment companies could plainly see that they needed less plant capacity from the 1980's on into the future.  Even for the overseas markets it was important to build in the area that you were selling in to buy favor of the people living there.  Unit sales for any piece of farm equipment was on the decline in North America.

Yes, but JD was trying to expand their line of heavy equipment.  Front end loaders, excavators, dozers, off-road haul trucks, etc.  Again without knowing what all would have been purchased, my point is pure speculation.  

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30 minutes ago, 766 Man said:

   Where JD needed help was with combines.  Buying AC would have given JD the R series tech instead of taking the cylinder/walker design another step with the 9000 series.  But it would have never been approved by the Feds.  When JD was looking at Versatile that Feds were demanding that JD give up disproportionally a great amount.  

JD didn’t need any help with combines.  They had experimented with rotary combines since the 50s and were actually ahead of IH in the development process of rotary combines in the early 60s. JD even coined the term “axial flow “ combine.  And if you read the red combine 1915-2015 book, JD had a lineup of rotary combines ready to go in the early 80s.  But the money to retool the factory which was going to cost millions plus the cost of each combine which was going to be around 100k caused them to shelve the idea and start development for the 9000 series combines.  Considering how the 80s turned out, that was a smart business decision.  I’m not going to get into conventional vs rotary combine debate.  It’s just that when you capture the No 1 spot building conventional combines why mess it up. You can’t argue with the success JD had with their conventional combines through the 80s and 90s.  On the other hand Gleaner could have used JDs engineering.  If anything to make them more reliable.  
 

 

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13 minutes ago, Big Bud guy said:

JD didn’t need any help with combines.  They had experimented with rotary combines since the 50s and were actually ahead of IH in the development process of rotary combines in the early 60s. JD even coined the term “axial flow “ combine.  And if you read the red combine 1915-2015 book, JD had a lineup of rotary combines ready to go in the early 80s.  But the money to retool the factory which was going to cost millions plus the cost of each combine which was going to be around 100k caused them to shelve the idea and start development for the 9000 series combines.  Considering how the 80s turned out, that was a smart business decision.  I’m not going to get into conventional vs rotary combine debate.  It’s just that when you capture the No 1 spot building conventional combines why mess it up. You can’t argue with the success JD had with their conventional combines through the 80s and 90s.  On the other hand Gleaner could have used JDs engineering.  If anything to make them more reliable.  
 

 

  Not that I doubt you but this is the first I have heard of a JD rotary ready to manufacture during the early 1980's.  Is the 100K JD's cost to build?  If retail both JD and IH had combines that were approaching 100,000 dollars in terms of retail price already on the market.  For as much admiration as I have for JD their financial division was as much responsible for product sales as anything during the 1980's.  

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37 minutes ago, 766 Man said:

  Not that I doubt you but this is the first I have heard of a JD rotary ready to manufacture during the early 1980's.  Is the 100K JD's cost to build?  If retail both JD and IH had combines that were approaching 100,000 dollars in terms of retail price already on the market.  For as much admiration as I have for JD their financial division was as much responsible for product sales as anything during the 1980's.  

 

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3 hours ago, 766 Man said:

  Not that I doubt you but this is the first I have heard of a JD rotary ready to manufacture during the early 1980's.  Is the 100K JD's cost to build?  If retail both JD and IH had combines that were approaching 100,000 dollars in terms of retail price already on the market.  For as much admiration as I have for JD their financial division was as much responsible for product sales as anything during the 1980's.  

Red Combines 1915-2015 by By Lee Klancher & Gerry Salzman

194C938D-AED0-4F1A-9D35-C769C0F1B581.jpeg

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43 minutes ago, Big Bud guy said:

Red Combines 1915-2015 by By Lee Klancher & Gerry Salzman

194C938D-AED0-4F1A-9D35-C769C0F1B581.jpeg

  I wish that there was a little more context there.  What was JD planning to build?  With a wholesale change would there have been an equivalent to the 6620 combine?  The 6620 was the biggest JD seller here in the East but probably getting a little small for the corn and wheat belts.  I wonder what the marketing forecast was.  IH no doubt built the 1440 based off of sales figures for the 815 more so than what they expected to be for a high capacity 4 row machine.  I liked the 1440 from what I saw of it but the reports that kept coming back was although it would accept a 6 row head it was a little underpowered for such work.  Especially if the 1440 had to fight mud.  I would say that for IH that the 1460 was the biggest seller here because it would clearly handle 6 rows.  

 

  The early 1980's was a bad time for equipment builders so no doubt that the accountants had the voice heard more in the boardrooms.  JD was probably counting on the combine production to keep the company solvent much like it did with the 2 cylinder tractor production during the 1950's although that concept was getting to be sorely out of date.  Just looking at probable production numbers based on assigned serial numbers for IH 1086 and JD 4440  during 1978 tells us how far demand fell off in five years when looking at the same for 1983 IH 5088 and JD 4450.  

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1440s were the big seller in this area when the Axial-Flows came out in 1978. Most guys were stepping up from 7/815s they had previously. In the early 1980s, the 1460 became more predominate as farm size increased. Seems like around here most 1440s had the mechanical controls(1980 and older), while most 1460s had electric-over-hydraulic controls(1981 and later). Seems like the biggest complaints of the 1440s were the small grain tank, underpowered, and the weak front axle/final drives. Several guys put turbochargers on 1440s, and bin extensions. I do remember a guy running an 8-row wide corn head on a 1440 around here for several years in the early/mid 1980s...seemed to get along fine with it. However, at that time, we raised corn that averaged 30-50 bpa most years at that time.

I always get a kick out of all of the proposed industry mergers that supposedly were on the table in the 1980s. Hate to tell anybody, but NOBODY had any $$$ in agriculture that time....that's why Deere was the ONLY ag company to come out of the 1980s with the same name they went into the 1980s with. They might have been in better shape financially than their competitors, but not THAT much better. Deere's proposed acquisition of Versatile is one of the few that actually did happen. I've got a Farm Journal article dated from January of 1986 that talks about that and all the other "name changes" going on in the entire ag machinery industry at that time...pretty interesting reading. I've heard that one of the reasons the Deere/Versatile merger didn't happen was because Deere fully intended on shutting down the Versatile plant in Winnipeg and moving all 4wd production to Waterloo...and the Canadian government would have none of that. Wouldn't surprise me, seems like the Canadian government can be pretty protective in situations like that.

As far as Deere with electronic controls in their tractors, one of my trade school instructors claimed that Deere had something like the 8000 series Deeres ready to go by the mid-1980s. Now, I don't know if this tractor had the "wasp-waist" design like the 8000s, as MFD would have been relatively new at that time, and the limitations of MFD on 30" rows maybe wouldn't have come to light yet at that time. But, levers and handles had been replaced by switches and buttons. I guess if you think about it, pretty much everybody had electric-over-hydraulic controls mastered on combines by then; there's no reason it couldn't have been done on tractors, too.

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29 minutes ago, SDman said:

I've heard that one of the reasons the Deere/Versatile merger didn't happen was because Deere fully intended on shutting down the Versatile plant in Winnipeg and moving all 4wd production to Waterloo...and the Canadian government would have none of that. Wouldn't surprise me, seems like the Canadian government can be pretty protective in situations like that.

 

I’m guessing that and the DOJ might have had something to say because they went after Steiger when IH bought into the company.  And I think the deal between Versatile and JD was very close.  The owner of our dealer at the time said it was a “done deal”.  I’d like to believe him somewhat because he had personal relationships with the JD CEO and upper management at the time.  

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26 minutes ago, SDman said:

1440s were the big seller in this area when the Axial-Flows came out in 1978. Most guys were stepping up from 7/815s they had previously. In the early 1980s, the 1460 became more predominate as farm size increased. Seems like around here most 1440s had the mechanical controls(1980 and older), while most 1460s had electric-over-hydraulic controls(1981 and later). Seems like the biggest complaints of the 1440s were the small grain tank, underpowered, and the weak front axle/final drives. Several guys put turbochargers on 1440s, and bin extensions. I do remember a guy running an 8-row wide corn head on a 1440 around here for several years in the early/mid 1980s...seemed to get along fine with it. However, at that time, we raised corn that averaged 30-50 bpa most years at that time.

I always get a kick out of all of the proposed industry mergers that supposedly were on the table in the 1980s. Hate to tell anybody, but NOBODY had any $$$ in agriculture that time....that's why Deere was the ONLY ag company to come out of the 1980s with the same name they went into the 1980s with. They might have been in better shape financially than their competitors, but not THAT much better. Deere's proposed acquisition of Versatile is one of the few that actually did happen. I've got a Farm Journal article dated from January of 1986 that talks about that and all the other "name changes" going on in the entire ag machinery industry at that time...pretty interesting reading. I've heard that one of the reasons the Deere/Versatile merger didn't happen was because Deere fully intended on shutting down the Versatile plant in Winnipeg and moving all 4wd production to Waterloo...and the Canadian government would have none of that. Wouldn't surprise me, seems like the Canadian government can be pretty protective in situations like that.

As far as Deere with electronic controls in their tractors, one of my trade school instructors claimed that Deere had something like the 8000 series Deeres ready to go by the mid-1980s. Now, I don't know if this tractor had the "wasp-waist" design like the 8000s, as MFD would have been relatively new at that time, and the limitations of MFD on 30" rows maybe wouldn't have come to light yet at that time. But, levers and handles had been replaced by switches and buttons. I guess if you think about it, pretty much everybody had electric-over-hydraulic controls mastered on combines by then; there's no reason it couldn't have been done on tractors, too.

  The shortcomings with the 1440 had the unintended effect of boosting sales of JD 6620 and Gleaner M2 at least around here.  I've run a 6620 combine and it just does not run out of power before corn goes over the back of the machine.  Something that I had to get through to dad who was used to the days of combines running out of power before capacity.  Just too many muddy falls around here to put up with the weakness of the finals on a 1440.  Also, the price point on a 1440 was several thousand dollars higher than a 6620 never mind going to a 1460 just to get good 6 row capacity.  Further, a lot of wheat straw was baled during those days and nearly all the buyers wanted straw from a walker machine.  All in all I still would not mind a 1440 to serve as a situational use machine where its weaknesses would not be emphasized.  

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2 minutes ago, Big Bud guy said:

I’m guessing that and the DOJ might have had something to say because they went after Steiger when IH bought into the company.  And I think the deal between Versatile and JD was very close.  The owner of our dealer at the time said it was a “done deal”.  I’d like to believe him somewhat because he had personal relationships with the JD CEO and upper management at the time.  

  Yes, as I stated earlier our own DOJ was not going to let a JD/Versatile merger happen without a lot of divesture by JD.  It was covered by publications such as Farm Journal and the WSJ at the time.  

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10 minutes ago, 766 Man said:

  The shortcomings with the 1440 had the unintended effect of boosting sales of JD 6620 and Gleaner M2 at least around here.  I've run a 6620 combine and it just does not run out of power before corn goes over the back of the machine.  Something that I had to get through to dad who was used to the days of combines running out of power before capacity.  Just too many muddy falls around here to put up with the weakness of the finals on a 1440.  Also, the price point on a 1440 was several thousand dollars higher than a 6620 never mind going to a 1460 just to get good 6 row capacity.  Further, a lot of wheat straw was baled during those days and nearly all the buyers wanted straw from a walker machine.  All in all I still would not mind a 1440 to serve as a situational use machine where its weaknesses would not be emphasized.  

There were a few 6620s sold here initially but guys soon learned thre bigger the better when it came to picking up heavy swaths.  7720 sales surpassed 6620 sales in 1981 only a couple of years after they were put on the market.  I have one neighbor with a 1440 and it’s the only one I’ve seen.  Rest are 1460/80s.  Horsepower was not one of their positive attributes so buying a detuned 1460 didn’t make much sense.  

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18 minutes ago, Big Bud guy said:

I’m guessing that and the DOJ might have had something to say because they went after Steiger when IH bought into the company.  And I think the deal between Versatile and JD was very close.  The owner of our dealer at the time said it was a “done deal”.  I’d like to believe him somewhat because he had personal relationships with the JD CEO and upper management at the time.  

Our Versatile dealer at the time said the same thing....it was a "done deal", too. They were very worried as Versatile was their main tractor line at the time. Otherwise, their other lines were Massey-Ferguson in tractors/combines, New Holland in hay equipment, as well as selling Hesston tractors, too. Later on, they dropped the MF line as Ford/New Holland/Versatile all went together to eventually form just New Holland in the late 1980s/early 1990s.

I forgot to mention in the previous post that Deere didn't bring the electronic tractors to the market in the 1980s as they felt that the market wasn't good enough to sell very many of them at the time. Like your discussion above about Deere not bringing a rotary combine on the market in the 1980s as they couldn't recoup their costs in the market that was going on at the time.

 

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30 minutes ago, 766 Man said:

  The shortcomings with the 1440 had the unintended effect of boosting sales of JD 6620 and Gleaner M2 at least around here.  I've run a 6620 combine and it just does not run out of power before corn goes over the back of the machine.  Something that I had to get through to dad who was used to the days of combines running out of power before capacity.  Just too many muddy falls around here to put up with the weakness of the finals on a 1440.  Also, the price point on a 1440 was several thousand dollars higher than a 6620 never mind going to a 1460 just to get good 6 row capacity.  Further, a lot of wheat straw was baled during those days and nearly all the buyers wanted straw from a walker machine.  All in all I still would not mind a 1440 to serve as a situational use machine where its weaknesses would not be emphasized.  

6620s were scarce as hen's teeth around here. One neighbor bought one when they first came out in 1979-80. He blew the engine up on it driving it home from the dealership when it was new...never even had a kernel of grain run through it yet. The next year, he bought an IH 1440 to run beside the 6620. In 1984 or so, he traded the 6620 in for a new IH 1460 so he had 2 Axial-Flows eventually. He ran those two machines side-by-side for several years.

Many 7720s around here at that time...and several 8820s as well.

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33 minutes ago, 766 Man said:

  I've run a 6620 combine and it just does not run out of power before corn goes over the back of the machine.  

Try big yeilding BT corn and get back to me..............Never ran a 8820, but quite the difference in that extra straw walker width of the machine between the 66 and 7720.............Could only imagine the difference between the 77 and 88.  Those 20 series machines were nice to run............until you had to work on them.  Thank god the horror stories of the MF'ers didn't happen here as there was hardly any around, but you compare a 1400 axial to a 20 series Deere it was quite the night and day difference when it came to wrenching.  A few silver seeders here, but only the die hards ran them.  Probably more Uni systems than those to be honest.

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