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international 434 electrical problem


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I have recently acquired a 1967 international 434 tractor with some electrical problems. According to the manual I have it is supposed to be a positive ground system. However it is hooked up with negative ground. It appears to have a delco remy alternator installed at some point. None of the gauges or warning lights work. The headlights and tail lights do work though. I am curious to hear what others think as to why nothing works. Could it be that when alternator was installed and put to negative ground would that cause everything to quit working? And what suggestion should i do to fix the problem? Find a generator to put back on and switch back to positive ground? Thanks a lot for any advice 

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1 hour ago, hosmercattle said:

I have recently acquired a 1967 international 434 tractor with some electrical problems. According to the manual I have it is supposed to be a positive ground system. However it is hooked up with negative ground. It appears to have a delco remy alternator installed at some point. None of the gauges or warning lights work. The headlights and tail lights do work though. I am curious to hear what others think as to why nothing works. Could it be that when alternator was installed and put to negative ground would that cause everything to quit working? And what suggestion should i do to fix the problem? Find a generator to put back on and switch back to positive ground? Thanks a lot for any advice 

If it is charging and the lights work, just move forward with the way it is currently set up. Find a terminal on the ignition switch that is hot with the key on. You should now have power on one side of the temp gauge. Same with the oil pressure lamp. If not unplug the switch and make sure the terminals are clean and the plug is clean and undamaged. When you get power to the gauge and light and still no go, check the wiring to the senders and the senders themselves. In the case of the battery charge indicator, that originally went through the voltage regulator to the generator to operate. Hence the alternator update will render any wiring diagram useless. You will have to find someone who can look at how your alternator is set up, and then make recommendations on how to wire the charge indicator. The bulbs in the indicator lamps are replaceable, so check those first.

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I'm guessing but it sounds like somebody already started to convert your tractor to 12 volt negative ground.  Does it have a 12 volt battery or a 6 volt battery?  The Delco alternator is most likely a 12 volt one wire alt.  The wire goes from the big terminal on the alt directly to the positive term on the battery.  You should install a volt meter in place of the amp gauge.  

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As Carmine has said, It sounds like someone started to convert your tractor from 6 volt positive ground to a 12V negative ground. On my old 1955 300 utility the temperature and oil pressure gages are mechanical and if yours are mechanical as well, they may have failed over the years and have not been repaired. The amp meter could still work although if it has not been rewired it will indicate backwards and be 30 amp instead of 60 amp and may need to be rewired. I have included a wiring diagram of a basic 12 negative ground system to give you an idea of how it could be wired (yours will be somewhat different but at least you have an idea of what works). You will have to chase a few wires and use a multi meter but it is quite doable. Good luck and let us know how you made out.

12 volt as wired.png

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 434’s  were never 6 volt, were never positive ground and have only a temperature gauge. Oil and  charge are indicator lights. It could possibly have a factory alternator if it’s a late one. It would have originally had a Lucas, possibly cost too much to fix and grafted on a much more common Delco. Whether or not it is charging, this will have no bearing on whether the instruments work. All you need is a test lamp to see if the instruments are getting power from the ignition switch. 

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9 hours ago, Tonys 300 Utility said:

Not being familiar with 434s I will leave in Binderoids capable hands. It sounds like he is quite knowledgeable about them.

Tony, it appears to me that you have taken offense at my comment and I assure you that I was not in the least discounting the value of your post. I’ve both seen and heard that a written statement can be interpreted in different ways than a spoken one. I failed to make myself clear, the fault is entirely mine. Or, if your scratching your head wondering what I’m talking about, well that’s just me getting it wrong again. As a friend once told me, “It’s better to LOOK stupid than to BE stupid”. Hope we can part as friends. B.

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Hi Binderoid

There was no offence taken. I was simply pointing out your knowledge regarding the 434s is far better than mine. I am used to working on my tractor which is 12 years older and not configured the same as this 434. I look forward to seeing the resolution to this problem, and am always willing to learn. We are most definitely friends in the same cause. Bringing elderly equipment back to life and learning as well. 

Kind regards Tony

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I think Im confused. Binderoid you say that 434 were never positive ground. Than I guess that Im reading the wiring diagram wrong. Just looking for some clarification.That came directly out of the international harvester operators manual. Just Curious If i have been reading the wiring diagram wrong the whole time. My apologies in advance if I have been. 

IMG-2674.jpg

IMG-2675.jpg

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Hi Hosmercattle

According to the tractor data site at least some 434s were 12 volt positive ground originally. So you are reading that wiring diagram correctly.

Is your tractor diesel? If so then this wiring diagram is a good place to start. If your tractor is gasoline please post the wiring diagram for a gasoline engine. In either case could you please post a picture of the page that has the descriptions that go with the numbers on the wiring diagram and we can start from there?

 

Tractor data.jpg

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