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Td9-91. Steering clutches seized or not?


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When I took the top inspection covers off both sides of my steering clutches, I got the shifter release forks to turn quite freely by hand and engage. So its shoving the thrust bearing into the shaft quite nicely.  Does this mean the clutch discs are free and the thing is operational or will the discs still be seized together?   ? Confused.

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Steering clutch plates are inside the brake drum so you cannot look and see, unless you pull it all apart.

 

You need to roll it and see if it turns. If it has not sat and sank into the ground , a 4x4 pickup should move it on flat ground. But brake lining rusting to drums is a common thing too. That you can loosen without taking it apart any father than you have it.

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I took the center pins out of the brake bands so they are loose and free on the drum.  Then I jacked up one side of the back end of the machine just enough to take the sprocket pressure off the chains.  There's no motor in it and it's been inside on a cement floor for 10+ years. With the transmission in neutral I can turn the sprocket maybe 1/4 turn and everything moves freely right through the final drives/steering clutches (both sides) and  the transmission.  This makes me wonder if the discs are OK, but like you say, you cant' see them.  

Guess I could put the motor back in and try it without tearing these clutches apart?

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Just roll it and see it one side stops when you pull steering lever and put brake on. On a hard surface a garden tractor should move it. With just a bit of down hill I have tow started a Cat D6 with a pickup.

When I had a brake band rusted to the drum, I could not drag a D6 with another D6. 

I am not so up on IH crawler to know if yours has booster of any kind but you should still be able over come that and apply it enough to know if the clutches release.

 

Or just take it all apart, not rocket science, just pig iron grunt work and time. 

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This is what it looks like now except for the brake band center pins which I removed to free the bands. You can grab the shifter release fork by hand and turn it so it "clicks" in and out easily. 

20210527_163335.jpg

20210525_130514.jpg

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I put the brake band pins back in place today and the drums still turn freely so bands aren't stuck to the drums. What confuses me is that when I turn the shifter release forks by hand there seems to be no "pressure". They just click. Are they not supposed to push against the spring which has tension?  When I get some help I will give it a tow and have someone apply the brake pedals to see what happens.  I'm guessing that the clutch disks are still stuck together but worth a try towing to see if they unstick. Everything else seems free to move.

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I had both my steering clutch out cleaned and needle scaled and disc sanded all metal parts, no problems in 6 years sitting outside.

You have done most of the work getting to them, another 2 hours and they will be out and than you will know what you have.

No more guessing, I would suggest you remove them go through them and reinstall. You will be much happy knowing you did them.

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I would put in 1st gear , clutch cover on with few bolts , slip the clutch release levers on the splines and figure a way to work them (slip small lengths of pipe over them )

perhaps hold them in released position with ratchet straps .

spin the input shaft with clutches released , If they are working (disengaging)  machine will not try to move,  If they are stuck you need to disassemble .

 

Or just pull em out like old iron suggested ?

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if you can turn lever by hand (normally has a LONG handle for leverage)some thing is not right /stuck

take the 8 hours now remove clean repair replace them...................but before > $100 is the engine good/uc 30% or>

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I think old iron is right, you have done most of the work already. Take the clutches out and clean them up you will be pleased you did.

I had one stuck clutch but I removed both and the good one was that rusty, it was not far away from giving trouble the drum bearing needed replacing and all the drum bolts were loose !

Cheers Dave

 

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Ok, consensus is to remove the clutches and inspect/clean/replace if needed. Makes the most sense at this point and I agree 100%.

I'm guilty of posting too many topics so look at my April posting on TD9-91 engine/clutch removal.  I recently bought an older TD9 with a running, decent motor and very good undercarriage. You can see a photo of it on the other listing page. From the serial number it's a 1951 and mine is a 1956. Logical move would be to fix up the 51 (one steering clutch seized and one track adjuster rod is broke). I really don't like the crammed up seating and hydraulic lines/air breather jammed between your knees, etc. on the 51 model so I might be crazy enough to swap the motor into my 56 dozer and switch the undercarriage too. I know that's a lot of work, my time and some $ but...

 

Back to Busted Knuckles comment below:  what's the answer?  I would think that you don't need plates made up to compress a spring if it's seized up.  You would need them to compress the spring to reinstall. Correct me- I'm new to this and the old timers that took these ones out years ago are all gone. Thanks.

On 7/1/2021 at 8:18 AM, busted knuckles said:

if the spring is locked up, can you still get the clutch out if it won't compress?

 

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The spring is held inside a retainer which is bolted to the pressure plate, so you need to compress the spring so the release thrust bearing assembly can move inboard to allow clearance to get the assembly in and out. It doesn't matter if the clutch plates are stuck together because the retainer can slide independently.

The service manual shows you how to compress the spring by using three bolts through the hub plate.

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Thanks, Dave Mac.  That's the explanation I was looking for. When I go back and search through old posts on RF, steering clutches are a predominant topic.   Cheers.

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16 hours ago, td9bcf180 said:

Thanks, Dave Mac.  That's the explanation I was looking for. When I go back and search through old posts on RF, steering clutches are a predominant topic.   Cheers.

Yes you are right about the steering clutches, but i think the problem is only with these old machines that are not being used much. I had a TD6 on a forestry block and I used it regularly, it lived outside for several years and I never had any trouble with anything including clutches. It was worked hard and it loved it !

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2 hours ago, Dave Mac said:

Yes you are right about the steering clutches, but i think the problem is only with these old machines that are not being used much. I had a TD6 on a forestry block and I used it regularly, it lived outside for several years and I never had any trouble with anything including clutches. It was worked hard and it loved it !

...Yes   Dave......fired up the old 91 series  , week or so ago.....guess what..one clutch is not releasing....and as I have denuded the old girl of "pig iron "...can't be poking at trees....in an endeavour  to free that sucker......and shed stored   also.......

Mike

 

...see you like old Ford  trucks ???...Here is one 4x4...and have another 4x2 F250..or is the liking for  BIG   Ford trucks.....??

post-157-1204530847.jpg

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4 hours ago, mike newman said:

...Yes   Dave......fired up the old 91 series  , week or so ago.....guess what..one clutch is not releasing....and as I have denuded the old girl of "pig iron "...can't be poking at trees....in an endeavour  to free that sucker......and shed stored   also.......

Mike

 

...see you like old Ford  trucks ???...Here is one 4x4...and have another 4x2 F250..or is the liking for  BIG   Ford trucks.....??

post-157-1204530847.jpg

Hi Mike

Mostly pick up trucks, I had a 1975 Aussie built F250 4x4 a few years ago, had a 55 F100 and a few jail bars. At the moment driving the 1948 Bonus in the photo, it is absolutely original NZ new with only two owners before me.

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7 hours ago, busted knuckles said:

Update on my side, got the clutch out and in the shop. Because the spring was stuck part way in, it came out fine with about a 1/2 inch to spare, not sure if it would clear in the full out position. I was down to the last four plates when the spring finally released it's self. Absolutely no way it was ever coming loose on it's own, 70years of crude and rust. Good luck on yours, not a fun job, but maybe seven hours for an old fart and hot weather.

Are you going to take the good one out while you are there ? Only one of mine was stuck but I was advised to clean up the good one and I am pleased I did.  

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7 hours for you might be 14 for me! Not too speedy these days.

I have added 2 more pictures but this steering clutch assembly was a "spare" that I found (originals are not out, yet).  Is the outer brake drum worn down too far (bad picture)?  Or do you take your chances and redo the brake band linings and adjust them to suit?   This one must have come off the same machine years ago as the clutch disks were all seized/rusted. But everything else seems to be in good shape.

The other photo shows a small portion of each disk that I cleaned up- one of the steel disk and one of the fiber disk. This was done with a cordless drill and round wire cup brush. (not too serious a cleanup).  There is a slight rough edge on each of the disks- will that matter?

20210707_145336_HDR.jpg

20210707_141954.jpg

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Cleaned up the drum some more. Looks to me like a throw away.

20210707_163953.jpg

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Keep cleaning you clutch disc. they look to be in very good shape. hopefully you can save them all.

Be carefully with the fiber ones, don't get to rough with them.

I have never seen a brake drum worn that much, brake must have been dragging all it life.

General Gear may have a good used drum

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I would run the parts you showed. Unless you thing your going to run a 1000 hours a year.

The last Cat D6 I worked on I used plates that had quarter size pieces of fiber that had stuck to the steel plate. I said this is the back up to the back up tractor, well it is the one I use the most. But still only a 100 hours a year. It has been about 5 years without even adjusting, but that is dew soon.

As a poor farmer I have stacked more than just one extra fiber and steel plate in stack of clutch discs going back in. Gave no trouble for a number of years. When it was time to work on it again the drive teeth where very pointy and ready to fail.

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Hi td9bcf180

Here is a photo of my drum, clutch assembly about to be refitted. I notice my brake drum surface area is not recessed like yours, but it is out of a BTD6 so it may be slightly different.  I think your discs look fine, I cleaned my steel discs with a portable angle grinder with a Flexi sander on it, and the fibre ones with coarse sandpaper on a flat surface. I also cleaned up the splines in the hub and drum and sprayed them lightly with a can of Rocol copper anti seize.

 

2F7BD7D0-3EB0-4D24-8728-A893F4C1718C.jpeg

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Thanks for the advice. Other than the drum, this spare clutch seems to be in good shape.  I still have the original clutches to remove from the 56 TD9-91 and the new dozer (51 TD-9) I bought has one clutch seized up, too.  Have to find the time to get at all these projects and get them done.

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