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Break In Oil


Cdfarabaugh

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Tried doing a search for previous posts about this and had no luck.  

My question is sort of twofold.  1) what makes break in oil break in oil other than not being synthetic and ZDDP content? 2)  What do you all use?  

I used the Lucas 30wt break in oil before on DT rebuilds, but nobody carries it local and its expensive to ship. I also questioned if its really made for a diesel engine since its main market is likely gas powered motorsport engines.  

Started using Deere's break in oil the past 2 years, but will this 10w30  oil work okay for things speced to run straight viscosity oil?

Its sorta nice getting and billing oil in gallons versus charging out bulk.  I get an extra gallon, give it to the customer and tell them to use it through the oil consumption of the break in period.  

Just finishing this 466 Deere up to get spanked on the dyno tomorrow.  Whoever decided upon using that stupid 100 lb cast oil pan on these needs to experience working with it.....

20210618_170840.jpg

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1 hour ago, Cdfarabaugh said:

Tried doing a search for previous posts about this and had no luck.  

My question is sort of twofold.  1) what makes break in oil break in oil other than not being synthetic and ZDDP content? 2)  What do you all use?  

I used the Lucas 30wt break in oil before on DT rebuilds, but nobody carries it local and its expensive to ship. I also questioned if its really made for a diesel engine since its main market is likely gas powered motorsport engines.  

Started using Deere's break in oil the past 2 years, but will this 10w30  oil work okay for things speced to run straight viscosity oil?

Its sorta nice getting and billing oil in gallons versus charging out bulk.  I get an extra gallon, give it to the customer and tell them to use it through the oil consumption of the break in period.  

Just finishing this 466 Deere up to get spanked on the dyno tomorrow.  Whoever decided upon using that stupid 100 lb cast oil pan on these needs to experience working with it.....

20210618_170840.jpg

The jd break in oil is fine use it in any diesel.

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Most truck shops just use the oil you’re going to run. Change it within the first 500 miles or 10 hours good to go. All the new trucks we get at work they just run them to 50k before changing oil.

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2 hours ago, Cdfarabaugh said:

Tried doing a search for previous posts about this and had no luck.  

My question is sort of twofold.  1) what makes break in oil break in oil other than not being synthetic and ZDDP content? 2)  What do you all use?  

I used the Lucas 30wt break in oil before on DT rebuilds, but nobody carries it local and its expensive to ship. I also questioned if its really made for a diesel engine since its main market is likely gas powered motorsport engines.  

Started using Deere's break in oil the past 2 years, but will this 10w30  oil work okay for things speced to run straight viscosity oil?

Its sorta nice getting and billing oil in gallons versus charging out bulk.  I get an extra gallon, give it to the customer and tell them to use it through the oil consumption of the break in period.  

Just finishing this 466 Deere up to get spanked on the dyno tomorrow.  Whoever decided upon using that stupid 100 lb cast oil pan on these needs to experience working with it.....

20210618_170840.jpg

That is kind of why I started the aches and pain thread. For twenty years I could hold them up with one hand and start bolts with other now days I either use a hydraulic table or have a helper start bolts.

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48 minutes ago, dale560 said:

That is kind of why I started the aches and pain thread. For twenty years I could hold them up with one hand and start bolts with other now days I either use a hydraulic table or have a helper start bolts.

Boy you said a mouthful there, with all the degrades my body has taken over the years I really didn’t notice (I’m lying a bit here) until yesterday, I brought out my motorcycle jack and using a cane I had to drag it over to the bike, when I put it away last year I could pick it up, at least we are still doing what we want.

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I thought ‘break in oils’ were done away with years ago. Previous two companies I worked for said ‘drive the truck, the way you drive a truck’. First oil change was at the regular change interval as all the others. Those were Navistar’s and KW’s, all were Cummins engines.

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I don't use break in oil myself..........Run what is going in it, change it sooner.  

I think for use in the tractor, the cast pans added rigidity, even if it is a pain, although I use a table myself, have 2 cut off long bolts, get it started on those, pump it right up into place.  I actually use it even for steel pans, smarter not harder...............

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Break-in oil for me is Cenpeco Super Racing in the Wt of your choice.  This is suggested by one of there oil techs for Cenpeco.  I have heard good thing about Driven oils including there Break-in.  Dad did some sampling of the JD Break-in oil and was not overly impressed.  If your interested in the lab results I'm sure I can share a copy from Black Stone.

Scott

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"Dad did some sampling of the JD Break-in oil and was not overly impressed. "

 What was there to be impressed about?

 A break-in oil is/was designed to have no anti-friction metallic salts added, the zinc and other stuff will go to the hottest part of the engine, I.E. the piston rings.

 If the rings don't seat correctly (wear in) you will have an oil burner.

 Lack of these elements is what make a break-in oil what it is.

 So the cheapest, no additive oil is what was/is considered break in oil.

  In modern times, the surface finish of the various parts has been made much finer, thus negating the need for special oils.

 But, if you are assembling with 1960's machining tolerances, the proper oil is needed.

 There  is also a method of loading and cycling the newly rebuilt engine to maximise the effectiveness of the break in process.

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I believe most John Deere machines come with first fill of breakin oil new. I know a local guy had a new 690 combine that was using oil after first change. He was told by JD to run another change of breakin oil through it and it did help.

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7 minutes ago, dale560 said:

I believe most John Deere machines come with first fill of breakin oil new. I know a local guy had a new 690 combine that was using oil after first change. He was told by JD to run another change of breakin oil through it and it did help.

They do, have drained it out of utility tractors here...............I would have thought Deere would have the dealer do this on the first change to check everything over again and make sure good oil went in the first time, but here atleast it seems the dealer is out of the loop on it the moment it leaves the lot.  

I am sure it isn't bad stuff, but haven't seen the need to use it myself, put good oil in after a rebuild and run it, change it sooner than the first required interval and go, have not had any issues doing it that way yet.  

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I don't know about tractors, but on car motors, It used to be use the cheapest oil you could find. Problem is, when people started getting offshore cams and the oil mixture changed, people started eating up cams left and right. China can make some nice stuff, but their metallurgy sucks.

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I followed the logic of breaking in with the oil that the engine would normally use. The last couple engines I did I was lucky enough to have a dyno at my disposal, I even had it outside the shop door before I even fired the engine for the first time. As soon as the engine was running it was outside and on the dyno with a varying load and rpm changes for about an hour, then did the hard pulls.

I changed an engine in a front end loader once and asked the engine shop the best way to break it in. They told me once I was confident in how it was running and checked for leaks to find a big pile on dirt and move it.  

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2 hours ago, supermechanic said:

"Dad did some sampling of the JD Break-in oil and was not overly impressed. "

 What was there to be impressed about?

 A break-in oil is/was designed to have no anti-friction metallic salts added, the zinc and other stuff will go to the hottest part of the engine, I.E. the piston rings.

 If the rings don't seat correctly (wear in) you will have an oil burner.

 Lack of these elements is what make a break-in oil what it is.

 So the cheapest, no additive oil is what was/is considered break in oil.

  In modern times, the surface finish of the various parts has been made much finer, thus negating the need for special oils.

 But, if you are assembling with 1960's machining tolerances, the proper oil is needed.

 There  is also a method of loading and cycling the newly rebuilt engine to maximise the effectiveness of the break in process.

A interesting theory, I don't believe any of us are petroleum chemist's.  We only can compare what others have to offer in this area.  I know several engine builders that use Redline/Driven/Cenpeco break-in oils with success (high zinc phosphorus), it is obviously quite different then the JD with lesser zinc and phosphorus.  Now maybe JD Break-in oil has it right and everyone else has it wrong?.

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12 minutes ago, 460 said:

A interesting theory, I don't believe any of us are petroleum chemist's.  We only can compare what others have to offer in this area.  I know several engine builders that use Redline/Driven/Cenpeco break-in oils with success (high zinc phosphorus), it is obviously quite different then the JD with lesser zinc and phosphorus.  Now maybe JD Break-in oil has it right and everyone else has it wrong?.

Isnt it kinda apples to oranges though going from automotive engine builders to our diesel world?  I always thought the critical break in was a flat tappet camshaft thats usually pushing on some pretty stout valve springs.  

In a diesel, theres not nearly the spring pressure as rpms are low, so cams and lifters getting chewed up during a break in period is pretty rare.  Most of the break in is occurring at the piston rings I would figure, and not sure if uber expensive automotive break in oils are needed.  

I should add I see some merit in just running oil, but this CK4 stuff is rather new, and is there much experience how it affects break in of older engines? 

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10 hours ago, Cdfarabaugh said:

In a diesel, theres not nearly the spring pressure as rpms are low, so cams and lifters getting chewed up during a break in period is pretty rare.  Most of the break in is occurring at the piston rings I would figure, and not sure if uber expensive automotive break in oils are needed.  

But it seems like diesels, at least the “older” engines like IH 400 series and others of that vintage, were known for cam lobe wear problems, and that is where the ZDDP comes in.  My understanding is that “break in oils” had higher levels of ZDDP to try to prevent that metal to metal contact and subsequent agressive wear when parts are new and therefore the most “rough” yet at a microscopic level.  ZDDP is specifically an antiwear additive.  I was told the zinc is mainly a carrier, it is really the phosphate portion of the compound that has the antiwear properties.  More modern engine oils have moved away from using zinc as a carrier because of environmental and catalytic converter concerns.  Presumably the phosphate group is still being added to the oil as an antiwear additive.  I have not been able to find out what is being used for a carrier.  The lowered zinc levels first came about with the multi-viscosity oils.  The straight weight oils like SAE 30 supposedly still have ZDDP in them, but my oil guy said that eventually the straight weight oils will go away.  He also said that some hydraulic oils are now being formulated without the zinc carrier, also because of environmental concerns.  

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2 hours ago, Gearclash said:

But it seems like diesels, at least the “older” engines like IH 400 series and others of that vintage, were known for cam lobe wear problems, and that is where the ZDDP comes in.  My understanding is that “break in oils” had higher levels of ZDDP to try to prevent that metal to metal contact and subsequent agressive wear when parts are new and therefore the most “rough” yet at a microscopic level.  ZDDP is specifically an antiwear additive.  I was told the zinc is mainly a carrier, it is really the phosphate portion of the compound that has the antiwear properties.  More modern engine oils have moved away from using zinc as a carrier because of environmental and catalytic converter concerns.  Presumably the phosphate group is still being added to the oil as an antiwear additive.  I have not been able to find out what is being used for a carrier.  The lowered zinc levels first came about with the multi-viscosity oils.  The straight weight oils like SAE 30 supposedly still have ZDDP in them, but my oil guy said that eventually the straight weight oils will go away.  He also said that some hydraulic oils are now being formulated without the zinc carrier, also because of environmental concerns.  

I think a lot of the DT platforms issues lies more in oiling, and that the early ones had the smaller diameter lifters.  Lots of newer mid range diesels recently or still do use flat tappet cams.  

Automotive has switched entirely to roller as well as big bores but smaller stuff hasnt......yet

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