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Hydro 70 adventure


idahydro
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6 minutes ago, idahydro said:

I too contemplated using a cheaper hydraulic fluid for the initial refill and filter change as a flush before refilling with HyTran.  And I might still do that. But even the cheap hydraulic fluids aren't cheap.  I haven't called the local CaseIH/New Holland dealer to price it out yet but the service manual says my tractor takes 20 gallons of HyTran, and I have been told that the total volume should be even higher than that especially when operating on slopes.  So that is a decent amount of money.  Probably false economy to try and save pennies there, but I'm allowed to complain about it a little bit at least.

Look around find some cheaper but not the yellow bucket stuff. I know tsc has the yellow 303 oil for 31 dollars and the little better stuff for 40 some a 5 gal bucket. I am not telling you to leave it in just run tractor a bit with flushing oil and dump it out. Then refill with good stuff. I think case ih hytran is close to 80 a 5 gal bucket now.

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8 hours ago, idahydro said:

Thank you!

Out of curiosity what is the mechanism for the damage to the transmission in that case?

The range shaft will turn the output motor of the hydro and destroy the slippers, pistons, slipper guide and retainer. Without charge pressure to keep the slippers against the swash plate those parts get beat to death in seconds.
Here's a photo of some destroyed slippers from a 656 Hydro that was rescued from a fencerow. Probably the reason it made it's home there for a while. The milky oil was more likely from sitting out unprotected and not the cause of the failure as the rest of this transmission was in pretty good shape.

Hydro Towing Damage.jpg

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16 minutes ago, Maynard said:

The range shaft will turn the output motor of the hydro and destroy the slippers, pistons slipper guide and retainer. Without charge pressure to keep the slippers against the swash plate those parts get beat to death in seconds.
Here's a photo of some destroyed slippers from a 656 Hydro that was rescued from a fencerow. Probably the reason it made it's home there for a while. The milky oil was more likely from sitting out unprotected and not the cause of the failure as the rest of this transmission was in pretty good shape.

Hydro Towing Damage.jpg

Not a pretty site. 

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  • 2 weeks later...

So I finally got a few hours this afternoon to look at the tractor project and first test drive since I bought it.  Drove it out to the county road and back and moved it around the farm some.  I know I owe pictures but I didn't manage to take any yet, apologies!  Some thoughts if folks wouldn't mind commenting:

The battery is a single modest sized group 24, 12v battery.  It's 8 years old so it probably is on its last legs, and it is probably undersized, but it needed to be charged to start the tractor which had been sitting a few weeks.  The "Amp" light on the right dash instrument (opposite the oil pressure light) flickered a while after starting the tractor but then went off, which is maybe related.  My manual implies the tractor came with 2 x 6V batteries in series originally, is that true? Should I upgrade to 2 x 12v in parallel?  If so where the heck does the second battery go because there is barely space for one -- it is currently tucked into the space under the steering wheel and I don't think I could put any larger battery in there.  There might be space to the left of the seat, or possibly forward of the brake pedals.

Tach doesn't work (currently shows 2330 hrs, 0 rpm) neither does fuel gauge (stuck on E).  Speedo and coolant temp do work fine.  All the gauges look in pristine condition other than some not working.  I guess I'll start troubleshooting those.  Mostly I want a tach for service intervals and to figure out proper operating rpm.  Any pointers, test procedure, common points of failure on these, etc?

I only have an oil pressure light in the cab, but there seems to be an oil pressure gauge on the left side of the engine.  It was hovering around 35 psi when at idle and warmed up, I assume that is acceptable.  I think I'd probably move that dial up to the instrument cluster somewhere, is that crazy?  I like the piece of mind of being able to see oil pressure while driving, not just the oh crap light.

Which brings me to the final problem and probably the most pressing issue: the plastic or fiberglass cowling that covers the area behind the dash is in pretty rough shape, mostly the left side.  Most of the holes where bolts used to retain the cowling are ovalized or torn out and as a result it isn't positioned where it should be and there is 3/8" gap between the left and right halves in the center.  If all it did was cover the instrument wiring then I wouldn't care but this puts the hydro speed and fwd/reverse lever gate on the left side in slightly the wrong spot (too far away from the steering wheel) and driving over bumps will kick the hydrostatic into neutral briefly causing lurching.  There are also grooves worn into each side of the hydro lever at the level where it contacts the gate from being in the wrong position for a while and rubbing, which makes the problem worse.  It looks like the previous owner "solved" this by putting a bungee cord on the hydro lever and pulling it towards the center of the console. I'll braze or weld the grooves out of the lever, but what do I do about the cowling?  If it is fiberglass maybe I could patch it, unless there is a good source for a replacement part somewhere that doesn't cost a kidney.

 

 

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16 hours ago, idahydro said:

So I finally got a few hours this afternoon to look at the tractor project and first test drive since I bought it.  Drove it out to the county road and back and moved it around the farm some.  I know I owe pictures but I didn't manage to take any yet, apologies!  Some thoughts if folks wouldn't mind commenting:

The battery is a single modest sized group 24, 12v battery.  It's 8 years old so it probably is on its last legs, and it is probably undersized, but it needed to be charged to start the tractor which had been sitting a few weeks.  The "Amp" light on the right dash instrument (opposite the oil pressure light) flickered a while after starting the tractor but then went off, which is maybe related.  My manual implies the tractor came with 2 x 6V batteries in series originally, is that true? Should I upgrade to 2 x 12v in parallel?  If so where the heck does the second battery go because there is barely space for one -- it is currently tucked into the space under the steering wheel and I don't think I could put any larger battery in there.  There might be space to the left of the seat, or possibly forward of the brake pedals.

Tach doesn't work (currently shows 2330 hrs, 0 rpm) neither does fuel gauge (stuck on E).  Speedo and coolant temp do work fine.  All the gauges look in pristine condition other than some not working.  I guess I'll start troubleshooting those.  Mostly I want a tach for service intervals and to figure out proper operating rpm.  Any pointers, test procedure, common points of failure on these, etc?

I only have an oil pressure light in the cab, but there seems to be an oil pressure gauge on the left side of the engine.  It was hovering around 35 psi when at idle and warmed up, I assume that is acceptable.  I think I'd probably move that dial up to the instrument cluster somewhere, is that crazy?  I like the piece of mind of being able to see oil pressure while driving, not just the oh crap light.

Which brings me to the final problem and probably the most pressing issue: the plastic or fiberglass cowling that covers the area behind the dash is in pretty rough shape, mostly the left side.  Most of the holes where bolts used to retain the cowling are ovalized or torn out and as a result it isn't positioned where it should be and there is 3/8" gap between the left and right halves in the center.  If all it did was cover the instrument wiring then I wouldn't care but this puts the hydro speed and fwd/reverse lever gate on the left side in slightly the wrong spot (too far away from the steering wheel) and driving over bumps will kick the hydrostatic into neutral briefly causing lurching.  There are also grooves worn into each side of the hydro lever at the level where it contacts the gate from being in the wrong position for a while and rubbing, which makes the problem worse.  It looks like the previous owner "solved" this by putting a bungee cord on the hydro lever and pulling it towards the center of the console. I'll braze or weld the grooves out of the lever, but what do I do about the cowling?  If it is fiberglass maybe I could patch it, unless there is a good source for a replacement part somewhere that doesn't cost a kidney.

 

 

The second battery is mounted on the platform to the left side of the seat. Two 12 volt batteries in parallel will work fine. Don't skimp on battery cable gauge, the bigger the better.

The left cowl must be mounted securely and the S-R lever gate must be in proper orientation so that as the lever moves through the slot the drive control spool stays in the proper position. There is supposed to be a trim piece to fill the gap between the left and right cowls.  You can weld up the S-R lever and grind and sand it smooth, or, if there is a lot of wear in the pivots Herrs Machine in Washington Kansas has new assemblies available. If the drive spool cannot be held in proper position when it moves out of drive position then is move back into position there can be some pressure spikes in the drive circuits that are not good.  

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I changed the oil and filters the other day. I drained from the oil pan and from the drain bolt below the filters.  Why is there a spring inside the oil filter drain plug?  It just makes it harder to use.  The oil was very very dirty but not milky and there was no water or coolant in it as best I can tell, nor could i see any metal flakes.  I used Baldwin filters (I guess I like red, who can blame me) and supertech heavy duty 15w40 oil planning to change it again relatively soon as a form of flush.

I flushed the coolant also, from the radiator stopcock, the oil cooler, and the block side drain.  I think somewhere at IH there in an engineer who went out of his way to carefully design this system so that from every drain, the coolant would flow out directly onto a frame member and splash everywhere making it impossible to collect.

What I thought was an oil pressure gauge on the left side of the engine earlier is actually a fuel pressure gauge I think, see photo.  Before I actually start using this machine I'd like to T in an oil pressure gauge to confirm oil pressure -- I get an intermittently flickering oil pressure tellite but it doesn't seem to have any relationship to what the engine is doing (rpm or temperature) and it never lights up solid so I'm not sure I trust the light.  Is there a test procedure for the tellite or sender? Where do I plumb in the oil pressure line for the gauge?

I "fixed" the L cowl positioning for now by adding some big washers, and it stays in gear but I still need to remove the grooves on the lever before doing any real work with it.

The front wheels have lots of camber, is this normal?

 

 

 

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Camber looks normal, I have never drained from the filter base but I wonder if it is a regulation valve there ? Looks like an oil pressure gauge on the side of the engine, it's "T"eed on the oil supply to lube the injection pump

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1 hour ago, idahydro said:

I changed the oil and filters the other day. I drained from the oil pan and from the drain bolt below the filters.  Why is there a spring inside the oil filter drain plug?  It just makes it harder to use.  The oil was very very dirty but not milky and there was no water or coolant in it as best I can tell, nor could i see any metal flakes.  I used Baldwin filters (I guess I like red, who can blame me) and supertech heavy duty 15w40 oil planning to change it again relatively soon as a form of flush.

I flushed the coolant also, from the radiator stopcock, the oil cooler, and the block side drain.  I think somewhere at IH there in an engineer who went out of his way to carefully design this system so that from every drain, the coolant would flow out directly onto a frame member and splash everywhere making it impossible to collect.

What I thought was an oil pressure gauge on the left side of the engine earlier is actually a fuel pressure gauge I think, see photo.  Before I actually start using this machine I'd like to T in an oil pressure gauge to confirm oil pressure -- I get an intermittently flickering oil pressure tellite but it doesn't seem to have any relationship to what the engine is doing (rpm or temperature) and it never lights up solid so I'm not sure I trust the light.  Is there a test procedure for the tellite or sender? Where do I plumb in the oil pressure line for the gauge?

I "fixed" the L cowl positioning for now by adding some big washers, and it stays in gear but I still need to remove the grooves on the lever before doing any real work with it.

The front wheels have lots of camber, is this normal?

 

 

The valve is a cold oil bypass valve, not a drain. The filters have anti drain back valves built in to keep oil in the filter when shut off. 
If you want to make sure you have as much oil as possible drained out, there is a drain plug on the bottom of the oil cooler.

The gauge on the left is teed into the lube line for the injection pump governor section, that is oil pressure but not the best place to get oil pressure reading. 
There is a 1/8" plug to the rear of the filter base. That would be a better place to get an oil pressure reading.

Your tellite flickering sounds like a wiring problem. 

Camber looks normal.

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Fuel filters replaced yesterday.  The first filter was phenomenally dirty, the diesel that drained out of it was cloudy and there was big chunks of debris just sitting on top.  I had a hard time getting the system re-primed.  The bleeder bolt on the leftmost filter housing "works" but was cross threaded at some point and is very hard to turn in addition to being rounded off, looks like somebody went at it with pliers.

My fuel hand prime pump at the rear of the injector pump does not work.  It leaked a little fuel the first couple of strokes then I feel no resistance when moving the piston.  No fuel ever came out of the bleeder and I pumped it for about five minutes just to confirm.  I removed it for inspection -- the piston is too loose in the sleeve to provide any vaccuum.  Is there an o-ring providing seal between the piston and the outer sleeve of the pump?  Because there does not feel like there is one.  I couldn't get the piston out without removing the handle at the end and I couldn't figure out how to do that.

With the hand primer pump out I could crank the engine until fuel leaked out that threaded fitting and got enough prime to get the motor running again.

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1 hour ago, idahydro said:

Fuel filters replaced yesterday.  The first filter was phenomenally dirty, the diesel that drained out of it was cloudy and there was big chunks of debris just sitting on top.  I had a hard time getting the system re-primed.  The bleeder bolt on the leftmost filter housing "works" but was cross threaded at some point and is very hard to turn in addition to being rounded off, looks like somebody went at it with pliers.

My fuel hand prime pump at the rear of the injector pump does not work.  It leaked a little fuel the first couple of strokes then I feel no resistance when moving the piston.  No fuel ever came out of the bleeder and I pumped it for about five minutes just to confirm.  I removed it for inspection -- the piston is too loose in the sleeve to provide any vaccuum.  Is there an o-ring providing seal between the piston and the outer sleeve of the pump?  Because there does not feel like there is one.  I couldn't get the piston out without removing the handle at the end and I couldn't figure out how to do that.

With the hand primer pump out I could crank the engine until fuel leaked out that threaded fitting and got enough prime to get the motor running again.

Gravity or air pressure in tank, just stick a air hose in tank and with rag around ur hand in pressurize it.The 312 are not hard to start ,get her spinning and she will go.put fuel additive in your fuel  dirt and water are killers on fuel pumps

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If anybody is wondering what $350 worth of Hy Tran looks like from the local dealership...

Where do I drain out the hydraulic oil?  My owners manual is a little ambiguous about this and the drawing does not match up with what the underside of my tractor looks like.  In the below picture I'm pretty sure #2 and #3 are both drain plugs.  What is #1?  Also of interest the previous braze repair at the forward right of the transmission housing.

The manual implies that I need to drain the rear housing also (e.g. under the rear axles and just forward of the PTO shaft) but I don't see anything that looks like a drain in that area unless it is hidden by the swinging drawbar.  It's pretty grimy under there so I didn't try and figure out how to unbolt that yet.

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IMG_20210623_181029__01 (1).jpg

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There is another drain on the right side of the hydraulic control housing, right side below the rockshaft.   Number 26 in this diagram from a 504 operator’s manual.  Number 24 is the final drive drain, right above the drawbar.

Brian

F6CF5508-555C-496E-8558-3C681475E889.thumb.jpeg.c3a6121d89a66a5b739f9c4c1cb8376e.jpeg

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Sorry about the next in a line of perhaps obvious questions, but can these rims be reversed to move the rear tires out from the tractor?  If so, are there significant downsides to doing this besides tillage implements not clearing the wheels?  I suppose I'd have to remount the tires also. The front lower part of the cab is less than an inch away from the tires at one spot, which is fine during the summer but I don't have enough clearance for chains in winter which is a significant problem.

The tires are 18.4x34 and are clearly pretty old.  Cracks on the traction face and sidewall, but I don't have a good sense of how much life is left on these or if I am just waiting for a flat in an inopportune place.

tire_1.jpg

tire_2.jpg

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What side is the valve stem? If they are currently on the inside I would put the left side on the right side and vise versa. Otherwise slide the hubs out

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Valve stems are on the outside, however there is a hole where they would go on the inside as well.  So what you are telling me is that the hubs can be loosened somehow and slid further out on that protruding axle?  That is fascinating.

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The hubs can be loosened & slid in or out.   The rims can typically be mounted dish in or dish out.   I've even seen the hubs mounted outside facing in....which looks really weird.

 

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  • 3 weeks later...

I fixed the tachometer, which I'm sure barely even counts as much of a mechanical job on this forum but I'm going to document it so maybe it can help somebody else because I had to figure it out on my own.  This is how I did it, rather than a description of how do to it necessarily...

The tach cable comes out of the top of a tach gear drive assembly just forward of the injector pump, at least on my tractor.  I unscrewed it at the engine side.  The end of the cable is squared, but was a little bit rounded off about 5/8" from the tip on my cable.  Turning the cable end anticlockwise if it is pointing at you moved the tach needle pretty smoothly, and I chucked it into a drill and ran it in reverse to confirm the gauge had full range, which it did. So both the rest of the cable and the tach gauge were still good I figured.

You can start the engine with the tach cable disconnected and confirm that the gearbox itself is working -- the output shaft that the cable itself goes into should spin.  This is the drive gear, which I was worried about being rounded off since it had a rounded off tach cable slipping in it for a long time.

I ended up taking the drive gearbox apart to examine the drive gear. You need to unscrew the very low profile nut on the bottom of the gearbox, which will allow the gear to drop out the bottom.  There is also a small hex screw facing the left side of the tractor just above this which I assume is a grease/inspection port.  The inside of the gear output shaft looked OK, maybe a little rounded but it is a mediocre design and does not contact the cable for very much area. I reassembled it from the bottom with whatever grease was in the grease gun.

I probably could have bought a new tach cable and fixed this but I was worried about the new cable rounding off too from a sloppy fit. I ended up using JB Weld to build up the end of the cable and then once cured I squared it off again with a file to fit snug.  I used 3-in-1 to lubricate the cable from one end, just holding one end up high and letting gravity take it down.  Probably would have been better to take the cable off entirely and remove it for cleaning and re-lubrication with graphite but I wasn't motivated enough.  I actually don't know if the cable will slide out from inside the outer sleeve on this tractor or not, I didn't try.  Works great now and I have a working tach for the first time.

For reference, my backup plan if that didn't work was just to JB Weld the cable end permanently into the output shaft of the drive gear.  That of course would require replacement of both cable and gear the next time it fails but is probably a more reliable fix.

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25 minutes ago, idahydro said:

I fixed the tachometer, which I'm sure barely even counts as much of a mechanical job on this forum but I'm going to document it so maybe it can help somebody else because I had to figure it out on my own.  This is how I did it, rather than a description of how do to it necessarily...

The tach cable comes out of the top of a tach gear drive assembly just forward of the injector pump, at least on my tractor.  I unscrewed it at the engine side.  The end of the cable is squared, but was a little bit rounded off about 5/8" from the tip on my cable.  Turning the cable end anticlockwise if it is pointing at you moved the tach needle pretty smoothly, and I chucked it into a drill and ran it in reverse to confirm the gauge had full range, which it did. So both the rest of the cable and the tach gauge were still good I figured.

You can start the engine with the tach cable disconnected and confirm that the gearbox itself is working -- the output shaft that the cable itself goes into should spin.  This is the drive gear, which I was worried about being rounded off since it had a rounded off tach cable slipping in it for a long time.

I ended up taking the drive gearbox apart to examine the drive gear. You need to unscrew the very low profile nut on the bottom of the gearbox, which will allow the gear to drop out the bottom.  There is also a small hex screw facing the left side of the tractor just above this which I assume is a grease/inspection port.  The inside of the gear output shaft looked OK, maybe a little rounded but it is a mediocre design and does not contact the cable for very much area. I reassembled it from the bottom with whatever grease was in the grease gun.

I probably could have bought a new tach cable and fixed this but I was worried about the new cable rounding off too from a sloppy fit. I ended up using JB Weld to build up the end of the cable and then once cured I squared it off again with a file to fit snug.  I used 3-in-1 to lubricate the cable from one end, just holding one end up high and letting gravity take it down.  Probably would have been better to take the cable off entirely and remove it for cleaning and re-lubrication with graphite but I wasn't motivated enough.  I actually don't know if the cable will slide out from inside the outer sleeve on this tractor or not, I didn't try.  Works great now and I have a working tach for the first time.

For reference, my backup plan if that didn't work was just to JB Weld the cable end permanently into the output shaft of the drive gear.  That of course would require replacement of both cable and gear the next time it fails but is probably a more reliable fix.

If you disconnect the cable at the tachometer head the cable can be pulled out for cleaning and lubrication.

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Back to your question about moving the wheels, if you move the tires side to side to put the dishes out you will end up with a HUGE difference in width. For only a couple of inches loosen the clamps and slide them on the axles.

Ideally you want the tractor tires to fit behind whatever bucket you use.

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I think with the wheels out to the end of the axles I will be close to 8 ft to the outer edges of the rear wheels, which I'm sure would be too much bucket for this machine.  But I don't have a bucket at the moment anyway, just the bale spear so we will cross that bridge when we get there.  I'm more inclined to push the wheels out for stability than I am to have them in enough to be covered by the bucket.

On to the next problem, I had a nice hydraulic leak at the PTO control valve seal so I bought a replacement and went to install it.  Then I stopped, because I'm assuming the control valve shaft is not supposed to be bent like mine is...at least it isn't on any diagrams I can find.  If so, can I replace just this part or do I need to do the whole valve?  The PTO works fine aside from the control valve leak but it is a bit difficult to engage and especially disengage -- requires a lot of force.

IMG_20210720_105614_30.jpg

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