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656-666-686 SERIES


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Anyone have any idea why IH continued to make this series of tractors with the Mechanical TA that free wheels going downhill? Seems like they would have switched it to the Hyd Ta unit at some point..... and would have made it a much nicer haying tractor. 

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Good question.  Wondered that myself.  I’ve spent innumerable hours baling and raking with a 686 in TA such that I have some kind of reflex to drag the brakes if the sixth sense says the tractor is over running the TA.

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R & D money. Or lack of. Same reason Allis kept making the 170/180/185/190/200 without a true live pto. 

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I had a bit of a scare once with a 666 Diesel Hydro back when I was as in high school. I was running my boss’s 666 on a rotary hoe in soybeans. Coming up to a headland, with a deep ditch in front of me, I went to slow down by pulling back on the Hydro lever and the tractor didn’t slow down. I about had a heart attack. Luckily I was smart enough to hit the clutch (foot and inch pedal) and also piled on the brakes, luckily hitting both brake pedals equally. I about crapped. I slammed that throttle closed and jumped off that “666” devil satan tractor. Lol. It left skid marks from both rear tires locked up from braking. The tractor front tires were at the grasses edge of the ditch bank. No cell phones back then so I hoofed it to the nearest house and called my boss’s wife. She came out and wanted to start the devil tractor back up. I told her I wouldn’t do that if I were you. Lol. So we just left the devil tractor set there over night. I had to go to school the next morning, but they had the dealer come out to get the tractor and take it in to the shop since it was in warranty. Trouble is, I can’t remember now what they did to it to fix it. As a young kid in high school, I never trusted that mark of the devil tractor 666 after that, although I did run it again many times. And it was fine after that. Anyone else ever experience a failure like that on a Hydro  666 devil tractor? Or any Hydro  tractor? 826, 966, 1066, 1026? 

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4 minutes ago, Rick G. said:

I had a bit of a scare once with a 666 Diesel Hydro back when I was as in high school. I was running my boss’s 666 on a rotary hoe in soybeans. Coming up to a headland, with a deep ditch in front of me, I went to slow down by pulling back on the Hydro lever and the tractor didn’t slow down. I about had a heart attack. Luckily I was smart enough to hit the clutch (foot and inch pedal) and also piled on the brakes, luckily hitting both brake pedals equally. I about crapped. I slammed that throttle closed and jumped off that “666” devil satan tractor. Lol. It left skid marks from both rear tires locked up from braking. The tractor front tires were at the grasses edge of the ditch bank. No cell phones back then so I hoofed it to the nearest house and called my boss’s wife. She came out and wanted to start the devil tractor back up. I told her I wouldn’t do that if I were you. Lol. So we just left the devil tractor set there over night. I had to go to school the next morning, but they had the dealer come out to get the tractor and take it in to the shop since it was in warranty. Trouble is, I can’t remember now what they did to it to fix it. As a young kid in high school, I never trusted that mark of the devil tractor 666 after that, although I did run it again many times. And it was fine after that. Anyone else ever experience a failure like that on a Hydro  666 devil tractor? Or any Hydro  tractor? 826, 966, 1066, 1026? 

I think it's a capsule that holds back from coasting in the IH hydro. One for reverse and one for forward

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18 hours ago, cedar farm said:

R & D money. Or lack of. Same reason Allis kept making the 170/180/185/190/200 without a true live pto. 

??? Or do you mean to say independent PTO? We had a neighbor down the road once who tried to run an IH Cyclo planter with an AC 200. I was helping him one time running that planter. It sucked the big kahuna at the headlands when I stopped at the head lands to raise the planter. If you pushed the clutch in all the way the Cyclo planter blower would stop. I was afraid I was going to burn up the clutch on the tractor. Dang I hated that. He didn’t have that AC 200 long. Traded it that winter. And got a 1066. 

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13 minutes ago, bitty said:

I think it's a capsule that holds back from coasting in the IH hydro. One for reverse and one for forward

Huh say what? 

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The  freewheeling in T/A was just the nature of the beast back then, If it was a problem leave it in DD and throddle back to get engine braking , It never bothered me any

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24 minutes ago, Rick G. said:

Huh say what? 

The part that holds back from freewheeling on those hydro is called a capsule

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2 minutes ago, bitty said:

The part that holds back from freewheeling on those hydro is called a capsule

I think they were talking about the gear drive models where the T/A side freewheels 

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21 minutes ago, bitty said:

The part that holds back from freewheeling on those hydro is called a capsule

Oh OK thanks, but that didn’t help in my case. I don’t think the Hydro was “freewheeling” in my case. It just kept going when it should have slowed down when I pulled back on the Hydro control lever. Something screwed up majorly inside the Hydro or maybe a linkage failed. Like I said all these years later now I can’t  remember what caused it. I’m sorry, I guess I hijacked this thread with my Hydro story and it started out as a gear drive topic. 

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1 hour ago, ksfarmdude said:

The  freewheeling in T/A was just the nature of the beast back then, If it was a problem leave it in DD and throddle back to get engine braking , It never bothered me any

+1, also was common on Olivers in the Hydra-Power and Over-Under in Low.............The few times we needed to be in TA for the right speed going down hill(Square baler comes to mind), I just would drag the brakes some.  Never had a issue.  Would have been hard to have that small frame tractor with a hydraulic TA stuffed in it...............That was the beauty of the tractor, it was small frame.

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Dragging the brake is a simple solution, but it requires that the operator know the problem in the first place, and know the solution.  Things could get real interesting in the event an ignorant operator got in the wrong situation.

A big part of the problem with the TA is not the TA, it is the lack of gearing choices that forces the use of the TA.  We used a 686 extensively for hay work both small baler and later pulling a hydraulic V rake.  Seems like more than half the time baling we were in TA, either 1st or 3rd.  Raking I think that tractor ran 95% of the time in 5th TA.  4th DD was too slow and 5th DD was too fast.  Thankfully the 686 is now permanently on a poo pump and the raking is done with a 766 which really never needs to run in TA.  The few times we baled with the 7 I don’t remember needing the TA either.  

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It was cheaper to keep using the same design vs. Engineering a small frame hydraulic TA unit.  Plus,  IH was putting the money towards the powershift transmission. (That never arrived in time to save them.)  Too many company executives were convinced that the IH customer base was not ready for a big change in driveline technology. 

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4 hours ago, bitty said:

The part that holds back from freewheeling on those hydro is called a capsule

On a 1066 hydro I think they are in this valve mounted below your handle for speed control

IMG_20210529_100257616.jpg

IMG_20210529_100309911.jpg

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1 minute ago, bitty said:

On a 1066 hydro I think they are in this valve mounted below your handle for speed control

IMG_20210529_100257616.jpg

IMG_20210529_100309911.jpg

The small frame machines have that valve in the dash, just above the battery.  

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20 minutes ago, nepoweshiekfarmalls said:

The small frame machines have that valve in the dash, just above the battery.  

That's pretty much where I should be describing

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7 hours ago, bitty said:

I think it's a capsule that holds back from coasting in the IH hydro. One for reverse and one for forward

A hydro holds back the same as any other hydaulic system. The motor acts as a pump. The pump acts as a motor and ultimately its engine compression that holds back.

Yes there is an anti coast valve in the drive control valve along with two capsules. Anti coast valve is not in the capsules. Both capsules are in use to move either direction. So one is not forward or the other reverse.

The anti coast only comes into play if going down hill and depressing foot and inch pedal. If tractor starts to run away. Valve will close and provide (iirc) 1500 psi reverse pressure to slow tractor.

I strongly advise not to try this. It can be very exciting especially if it fails to work.

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2 hours ago, nepoweshiekfarmalls said:

It was cheaper to keep using the same design vs. Engineering a small frame hydraulic TA unit.  Plus,  IH was putting the money towards the powershift transmission. (That never arrived in time to save them.)  Too many company executives were convinced that the IH customer base was not ready for a big change in driveline technology. 

IH spent a lot of time pandering to the "I DON'T LIKE CHANGE" crowd. There were a lot of farmers who simply did not trust the "new fangled" hydraulic TA, and a lot who thought the 706 was simply too big.

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7 hours ago, Matt Kirsch said:

IH spent a lot of time pandering to the "I DON'T LIKE CHANGE" crowd. There were a lot of farmers who simply did not trust the "new fangled" hydraulic TA, and a lot who thought the 706 was simply too big.

I don't know if they cared as much about the engineering inside the housings as much as it was just "Too Big"..................Heck, guys here around me have even told me they bought 766's because the 966's looked just too big...............I don't think their is very much difference in them at all but that was the thought process.  I don't remember the exact number, but the price difference was not a whole lot between the two.  I always found it quite funny, seems out west they wanted them bigger, while the majority of dairy farmers here were worried they were too big.  

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I always thought as far as speed choices an M & W 9 speed combined with a T/A would have been interesting. I realize it wouldn't have helped for 5th gear, but what a lot of choices in 1 thru 4.

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On 5/29/2021 at 9:36 PM, TP from Central PA said:

I don't know if they cared as much about the engineering inside the housings as much as it was just "Too Big"..................Heck, guys here around me have even told me they bought 766's because the 966's looked just too big...............I don't think their is very much difference in them at all but that was the thought process.  I don't remember the exact number, but the price difference was not a whole lot between the two.  I always found it quite funny, seems out west they wanted them bigger, while the majority of dairy farmers here were worried they were too big.  

Yeah hard to make everybody happy.   The "big crop farmers" went straight to 806-1066-1486-Magnum.   Around me they even mow roads with 250hp FWA tractors.   

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On 5/29/2021 at 9:11 AM, Gearclash said:

Dragging the brake is a simple solution, but it requires that the operator know the problem in the first place, and know the solution.  Things could get real interesting in the event an ignorant operator got in the wrong situation.

 

I started running the SM-TA quite a bit the spring & summer I was 10 yrs old.  If I was at the "Other farm" I had a half mile of road to travel, and only high side of 5th worked for that. The SM-TA popped or backfired in a spectacular fashion when slowing down in 5th from a good hard run, but slowing down in direct 5th to a pretty low idle, then about the time I turned into the yard I'd pull the TA back and ride the brakes to where I planned to park, like by the gas barrel, or by the shop, or up by the crib.

   Soon as I parked the tractor and ready to shut it off I set the brake, put TA ahead, then pushed ignition button in and eased the clutch out in gear.  It would diesel the worst I ever saw, sometimes forward, sometimes backwards.  The temp guage would be down between the Cold and Run right where it always ran, I could have left it idle a couple more minutes but most times I was late for lunch or supper.  Maybe running 4th gear between farms or the back 40 and barnyard, also a half mile away, would have let it cool off more. But what 10 year old runs 6 mph when a 16 mph gear is available?

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@DOCTOR EVIL

When I was younger, my dad owned a SM-TA also.  And a 450.  I don’t ever remember the SMTA after firing, or indulging in after run or dieseling.  The 450 on the other hand, was terrible about it, to the point that it was common practice to shut it down with 5th gear selected and let the clutch out when the key was switched off.  Off hand I would guess that the fuel mixture being leanish was probably a factor the tendency to diesel.  

Both tractors have long since seen sold down the river, the SMTA went to a guy that supposedly owns a factory in or near Sioux Falls SD that makes and installs fire fighting apparatus on the fire truck chassis.  I do not know where the 450 went.  It had a loader on it when it sold, the loader was on it 95% of the time it was around here.

I preferred running the SMTA over the 450.  The SMTA had power steering that worked well, even under a front mount cultivator.  The 450 must have had a weaker PS system, plus the loader hanging on it, and it was mostly a bear to run.  Not as bad as the non PS 300 we had also. but close.

Both tractors near burned up at one point.  The SMTA when a hired young guy was cultivating with it and a hose running to one of the lift cylinders ruptured and blasted the exhaust with hydraulic oil.  Instant fire.  The operator was a quick thinker with a cool head, and smothered the flames with his shirt that he whipped off.  My dad was all too happy to buy him a new shirt.  The 450 started on fire for reasons l never did hear exactly, while doing loader work.  My brother was running it and ran to the house where there was an ABC extinguisher and got the fire out.  Neither tractor had much damage but it could have been different.

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17 minutes ago, Gearclash said:

 

When I was younger, my dad owned a SM-TA also.  And a 450.  I don’t ever remember the SMTA after firing, or indulging in after run or dieseling.  The 450 on the other hand, was terrible about it, to the point that it was common practice to shut it down with 5th gear selected and let the clutch out when the key was switched off.  Off hand I would guess that the fuel mixture being leanish was probably a factor the tendency to diesel.  

Both tractors have long since seen sold down the river, the SMTA went to a guy that supposedly owns a factory in or near Sioux Falls SD that makes and installs fire fighting apparatus on the fire truck chassis.  I do not know where the 450 went.  It had a loader on it when it sold, the loader was on it 95% of the time it was around 

The SM-TA got traded at WESTBAY EQUIPMENT in Galesburg, Ill for a gas FARMALL 450 with fast hitch and a truck load of fast hitch implements, 4-14 4F-43 fully mounted plow, #25 rotary stalk chopper, and Dad got a FH Service brand 6 ft blade.  Seemed like I lived on that tractor in summer! It got rode hard, put away wet and never dieseled or ran on.  I went thru 350 gallons of gas with that 450 during spring break about 1966 or '67. I had nine days in a row off, ran out of gas about day 6 or 7.

Our SM-TA had add-on Charlynn PS, the governor bolt-on pump bracket, it steered easy enough I cultivated with it with IH #455 cultivator. 450 had factory Behlin ps, it steered O-K too. Keeping the frt tires on the ground with the 450 could be an issue. I remember disking in the very back of the 80 my sister & I now own, the steepest hill on the property, I pulled the TA into lo side at 1000-1100, soon as it hit 1400-1450 it went into high side.  Both times it would pick the frt tires up about a foot and carry them for 10-12 ft.  With the fully mounted FH plow we ran 3rd in old corn ground plowing, 2nd in old hay ground or hog pasture. Dad bought a really nice Case 4-14 trailing plow, lots of trash clearance, kinda Case's version of the IH #70. With the Midwest plow harrow still ran 3rd in old corn ground, in sod, either old hog pasture or hay, in high 2nd it wouldn't wind up to 1450, would get hot, had temp gauge up to middle of the run range, shifted up to 3rd and ran in low TA. It cooled right down.

    I'd really like a nice SM-TA, but thinking about all the things I did with the 450 I could see a 450 sitting in the shop too.

   Dad had some REAL GUTS, summer I was 10 after the cultivator came off the SM-TA he put the sickle mower on it, and had me mow hay. I had mowed 1st cutting with the '39 H.  Other than I didn't have enough strength in my right thumb to release the pto lever, I got along fine mowing with the SM-TA. The mower really wasn't up to mowing at 6-1/2 mph, I ran 5 mph in 3rd. By the time Dad traded the '39 H for the SH we'd given up on the sickle mower. Think I only mowed with SH & sickle mower 1 maybe 2 times, then used the rotary mower.

   Oh, and speaking of your SM-TA, going to Sioux Falls, SD, and a fire truck mfg company, I have a real good friend that works there!  We went to FARMALL LAND last September together. He studied the IH fire trucks, I looked at the 4300 and the H's and M's.

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