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1066 - 6V batteries test good individually, bad together?


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We had battery problems with the 1066 all last year. Sometimes it would barely crank over, but it starts so easy it would run, but other times just, no...

I pulled the batteries here this spring to check connections.

Each battery individually tested borderline on the carbon pile tester set on 6V mode. I held it until I saw the heating elements starting to glow, at least 15-20 seconds each battery, and they were rock solid. This was after sitting all winter with no charge and trying to start the tractor a couple of times.

With the batteries connected back together, and the carbon pile tester on 12V mode, the whole thing just fell on its face. Way down into the low WEAK area.

The newest battery was 8 years old, and the other was 9+ I'm sure. Two new batteries and all is well.

I'm just curious why the individual batteries tested borderline but the "sum of the parts" was greater than the whole. Yes, I'm sure the carbon pile tester was on the right mode each time. Yes, the series cable was good and clean.

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Well I don't know the answer to your questions but I'll say you got a lot better life from the batteries than I ever have. I've converted mine to 12v and they don't last much better for me. So I'm curious, you removed the batteries from the tractor and prior to that it had been setting and you tried to start the tractor a couple times. When you tried to start the tractor a couple times did it not start? Not crank good enough? That's the way I'm interpreting it. If the engine wouldn't crank well enough to start I wouldn't have ever thought the batteries would test borderline, only weak or very weak. No answers here, just more questions.  

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Resistance in the battery cables, primarily the cable going from the negative post of one battery to the positive post. of the other battery.

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18 minutes ago, Nebraska1206 said:

Resistance in the battery cables, primarily the cable going from the negative post of one battery to the positive post. of the other battery.

Yep. Connections connections connections!

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1 hour ago, TB5288 said:

If the engine wouldn't crank well enough to start I wouldn't have ever thought the batteries would test borderline, only weak or very weak.

It was a no-crank situation. Charging, boosting, and jumping did not make any difference.

I pulled it all apart looking to find bad battery cables or a bad connection. I found nothing obvious, but replaced the ground strap because it was the only thing that looked even slightly suspect.

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42 minutes ago, Mike56073 said:

Yep. Connections connections connections!

Except the new batteries test well into the green with the SAME cables...

I went through and cleaned all the terminals and cables (and installed the new ground strap) before testing the old batteries. They weren't even the slightest bit corroded because they had been done recently.

The batteries were definitely shot. I just want to know why the carbon pile tester was lying to me.

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14 minutes ago, Matt Kirsch said:

I just want to know why the carbon pile tester was lying to me

Not capable of loading heavy enough at half voltage. Clean discs in carbon pile. 

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1 hour ago, Matt Kirsch said:

We had battery problems with the 1066 all last year. Sometimes it would barely crank over, but it starts so easy it would run, but other times just, no...

I pulled the batteries here this spring to check connections.

Each battery individually tested borderline on the carbon pile tester set on 6V mode. I held it until I saw the heating elements starting to glow, at least 15-20 seconds each battery, and they were rock solid. This was after sitting all winter with no charge and trying to start the tractor a couple of times.

With the batteries connected back together, and the carbon pile tester on 12V mode, the whole thing just fell on its face. Way down into the low WEAK area.

The newest battery was 8 years old, and the other was 9+ I'm sure. Two new batteries and all is well.

I'm just curious why the individual batteries tested borderline but the "sum of the parts" was greater than the whole. Yes, I'm sure the carbon pile tester was on the right mode each time. Yes, the series cable was good and clean.

ya so that means if connections are clean that dont mean a thing. the problem is inside the battery cable at the clamp where you cannot see the problem , inside was all green. and yes i  have have had this happen to me. just cut the end off and put a new solder clamp on. worked perfect and still is.

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Now you know why I despise using 2 6V batteries to make 12V. More opportunities for the gremlins to make things happen that physics can’t explain.  

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20 minutes ago, snoshoe said:

Not capable of loading heavy enough at half voltage. Clean discs in carbon pile. 

That's what I'm thinking too. My load tester won't hardly pull down a 6 volt battery. 

 

1 hour ago, TB5288 said:

 I've converted mine to 12v and they don't last much better for me. 

Same here. I had one of my 1066's on 2 12 volts and it didn't start any different. I got 4 years out of those 12 volt batteries and the 6 volts I replaced were 8 years old. I went back to 2 6 volts after that. 

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If I could find a good place to put a group 31 on it, that's all it would need. It has a Hiniker cab on it so putting the battery in a modified tray on the right hand side won't work.

A battery box under the cab behind the steps like an 86 series would be ideal but I can't envision it or find anything convenient to hang it from.

I sat my spare Group 31 in the cab and hooked it up to a half-arsed ground and it spun the engine over like nothing.

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My FIL doesn't care what anything looks like, just make it work. He made a rectangle platform out of 2 inch angle iron and bolted it to the left side frame rail on his 1066. That's his battery box! I'm not even sure on the battery group number but it's gotta be 12 inches wide, 8-10 inches tall and about 20 inches long. It's heavy, I know that. Made battery cables to run back to the starter. There's also something keeping a draw on the battery, so instead of fixing it all he has to do is unhook/rehook the battery cable when he gets in and out of the cab. Don't care what it looks like just so it works. 

 

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6 minutes ago, TB5288 said:

My FIL doesn't care what anything looks like, just make it work. He made a rectangle platform out of 2 inch angle iron and bolted it to the left side frame rail on his 1066. That's his battery box! I'm not even sure on the battery group number but it's gotta be 12 inches wide, 8-10 inches tall and about 20 inches long. It's heavy, I know that. Made battery cables to run back to the starter. There's also something keeping a draw on the battery, so instead of fixing it all he has to do is unhook/rehook the battery cable when he gets in and out of the cab. Don't care what it looks like just so it works. 

 

4D or 8D battery fits that description 

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3 hours ago, Matt Kirsch said:

We had battery problems with the 1066 all last year. Sometimes it would barely crank over, but it starts so easy it would run, but other times just, no...

I pulled the batteries here this spring to check connections.

Each battery individually tested borderline on the carbon pile tester set on 6V mode. I held it until I saw the heating elements starting to glow, at least 15-20 seconds each battery, and they were rock solid. This was after sitting all winter with no charge and trying to start the tractor a couple of times.

With the batteries connected back together, and the carbon pile tester on 12V mode, the whole thing just fell on its face. Way down into the low WEAK area.

The newest battery was 8 years old, and the other was 9+ I'm sure. Two new batteries and all is well.

I'm just curious why the individual batteries tested borderline but the "sum of the parts" was greater than the whole. Yes, I'm sure the carbon pile tester was on the right mode each time. Yes, the series cable was good and clean.

8 years old ? really ? Put in new batteries

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1 minute ago, ksfarmdude said:

8 years old ? really ? Put in new batteries

I don't think he was really debating about replacing the batteries, I think he was trying to understand how the batteries tested. 

 

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2 minutes ago, TB5288 said:

I don't think he was really debating about replacing the batteries, I think he was trying to understand how the batteries tested. 

 

That may be but if they are that old they are shot . I don't test any battery past 5 yrs old

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Sometimes you just don't know.   I have a single 12V battery I took out of a VW Diesel.   In the car-- it was always dead.  Kept having to charge it.   Tested as bad/weak on the tester.  Pulled it out and set it on the floor.  Decided to charge it one more time just to see.....and its just fine and dandy, tests 1000CCA.   And KEEPS a charge, I now use it to jumpstart other things! The new battery in the car is A-OK, starts just fine.   Just WEIRD.

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I just took these group 24 Interstate Batteries out of my 5288. I bought the tractor in 2002 and these batteries went in June of 2003. They still start the tractor just getting weaker all the time. Look at the label, how long has it been since Joe Gibbs raced a Grand Prix? 

I have a new set of Delco batteries going in. I don't believe the new Interstates are this good. 

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6 hours ago, Matt Kirsch said:

If I could find a good place to put a group 31 on it, that's all it would need. It has a Hiniker cab on it so putting the battery in a modified tray on the right hand side won't work.

A battery box under the cab behind the steps like an 86 series would be ideal but I can't envision it or find anything convenient to hang it from.

I sat my spare Group 31 in the cab and hooked it up to a half-arsed ground and it spun the engine over like nothing.

I have  single group 31 on my 856 -- works good** -- use a really crude battery holder but the idea is for extreme ease of service, not looks.

 

** I have a sneaking suspicion that using only 1 group 31 is at least a partial contributor to the rather short battery life I have had on this tractor.  Granted it has recurring alternator problems but my newer tractors have the 2 of the same group 31s in and they will carry on for a while even after they start to get weak.

4F0131EA-0797-40AA-83D4-8ABFB3CD4DCC.jpeg

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This is one of the battery box/steps we have altered . In the coffee shop thread called Clydesdale is getting it's hair brushed

Screenshot_20210330-051316.png

Screenshot_20210330-051320.png

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13 hours ago, rustred said:

ya so that means if connections are clean that dont mean a thing. the problem is inside the battery cable at the clamp where you cannot see the problem , inside was all green. and yes i  have have had this happen to me. just cut the end off and put a new solder clamp on. worked perfect and still is.

Had that exact problem with my 7120 Magnum probably 6 or 7 years ago. First start in the morning when cold it didn't have enough umph to turn it over quick enough to make it fire. Warmed up enough it would start fine until it was cold, then you needed to boost it to start it again. 

Tested the batteries and they came back good. We really got into testing the voltage going to the starter and found we were only getting juice from one battery ( apparently you can start a warm Magnum on 1 battery but cold you need the juice from the 2nd one to whip it over fast enough to fire. We got to looking at cables and found one to be green a few inches from the terminal and went up and little bit up the cable. Ended up replacing it because by the time we hit good clean cable, it was no longer long enough to reach the battery. No cable and no problems again. 

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We have an 856, 756, 826, 1206 and a hydro 100 with 2 6 volt batteries.   If your cables are in good shape, connections are clean, no drains on the electrical system; they will start great.  The 100 will fire on the first revolution every time.  The 1460 and the 1486 with the 2 12 volts will rotate the tractor around the starter!

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Sounds like it was the load tester just not able to put enough load on the 6V batteries to show a problem.

I agree, as long as everything is good, there isn't any difference between two 6V 3EH's in series and a 12V Group 31. Unfortunately there's twice as much to go wrong, and it often does.

When something goes wrong you're stuck cobbing it back together because nobody stocks the proper battery cable parts anymore, and it always causes problems when you need the tractor to start and run... Dealers have the same crap as NAPA, Autozone, Oreilly's, etc.. Believe it or not Walmart has the best battery stuff, gold plated collet type clamp ends.

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If you unhooked the 6V batteries and tested each separately, then the tester is hooked direct to each battery being tested.

Then to get 12V you had to use a cable to hook the two batteries together.

You tested it long enough so any bad cable should be hot in the bad place. High Resistance.

Run your hand along it until you find the heat or use one of the laser temp sensors.

If you had the tester hooked to the cable from the two batteries that hooks to starter, and the ground to the frame, you are now testing both the cables and batteries.

I have seen ground cables, where they bolt to the cast iron, not make good contact.

Clean all connections, check the cables for heat, until you get the right amount of current flow to the starter.

Think of electricity like a water hose.

If you have a kink in the hose (High Resistance) the flow can't get to the end (The starter)

 

 

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Yup. Did all that. Not my first rodeo.

Old batteries tested weak. New batteries with the same cables tested good.

Take the batteries out of the tractor and testing individually, they tested just into the green, borderline.

It's just such a pain to get at the batteries on these Hiniker cabs. There's three layers of tin to remove, plus the floor plates and the front windows.

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