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826 with d358


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Putting the 826 back together after the engine overhaul. I set all the dots to there respected place and put the injection pump gear on with #5 line up with dot and engine on tdc. Set engine to 16° btdc and the I can't get the pump line to to line up with pointer. Any suggestions as to what to do?

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Is the pump 360* out of time? The Bosch pumps only turn at 1/2 the engine speed so they can easily be installed 1 rev out of time.
The pump drive shaft key will line up with #1 cyl at 16* btdc but the pointer in the timing window will not be on the timing mark.
Problem pump is 1 rev out of time, solution, scribe marks on the pump drive gear and the pump drive hub, remove the 3 cap screws that hold the drive hub to the drive gear and put a socket on the pump drive shaft and turn the pump drive shaft 1 rev in direction of pump rotation and check timing marks to pointer, set the proper timing and re-install and tightened the 3 cap screws. 

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1 hour ago, jimb2 said:

Is the pump 360* out of time? The Bosch pumps only turn at 1/2 the engine speed so they can easily be installed 1 rev out of time.
The pump drive shaft key will line up with #1 cyl at 16* btdc but the pointer in the timing window will not be on the timing mark.
Problem pump is 1 rev out of time, solution, scribe marks on the pump drive gear and the pump drive hub, remove the 3 cap screws that hold the drive hub to the drive gear and put a socket on the pump drive shaft and turn the pump drive shaft 1 rev in direction of pump rotation and check timing marks to pointer, set the proper timing and re-install and tightened the 3 cap screws. 

You lost me on that one Jim.  Pump turns half engine speed, so if engine is 360° off, that's 180° on the pump.  Turning the pump one revolution puts it back where it was.  

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13 hours ago, J-Mech said:

You lost me on that one Jim.  Pump turns half engine speed, so if engine is 360° off, that's 180° on the pump.  Turning the pump one revolution puts it back where it was.  

J-Mech, I was going to say 180* but then I thought Young Mechanic may only try to turn the pump drive shaft 180* instead of 1 Rev for 360*.
Your thoughts on how to explain the problem/solution? You have spent your life being a mechanic, I spent 50 years being a computer mechanic and part time farm mechanic.
I have personal experience with a Bosch pump being 1 Rev out of time. One time several years ago when I was very busy at work my brother decided to change the leaking front seal on the Bosch pump in his 454 with D-179. About 3 weeks later I was at his farm helping him and we were going to go to the other farm with the 454, he went to start it and cranked it for 30 seconds before it started and it was running rough and black smoke, lots of slobber, etc.. I said what is wrong with the 454 as it usually starts in less than 1 rev of the engine, then he tells me he had changed the front seal on the pump and how he had removed the cap screws without scribing a line on the hub, etc. 
So convinced him to shut it off and I re-timed it and it start and ran like normal but on the mile drive to the other farm the muffler was like on fire inside and it was throwing a lot of hot carbon bits up in the air. 

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1 hour ago, jimb2 said:

J-Mech, I was going to say 180* but then I thought Young Mechanic may only try to turn the pump drive shaft 180* instead of 1 Rev for 360*.
Your thoughts on how to explain the problem/solution?

Unless I am misunderstanding what you are saying, you would only turn the pump shaft 180° to bring back in time, not 1 revolution (360°).  You could turn the engine 360° while holding pump shaft from turning to accomplish the same result.  

Now, the Ambac pump on the 400 series is different.  That pump is driven at engine speed, so it would take a full revolution (360°) of either the engine or pump shaft if they are out of time. 

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8 minutes ago, J-Mech said:

Unless I am misunderstanding what you are saying, you would only turn the pump shaft 180° to bring back in time, not 1 revolution (360°).  You could turn the engine 360° while holding pump shaft from turning to accomplish the same result.  

Now, the Ambac pump on the 400 series is different.  That pump is driven at engine speed, so it would take a full revolution (360°) of either the engine or pump shaft if they are out of time. 

I have only turned the engine to get the 14* BTDC.
An example on 4 cyl Neuss German Diesel with Bosch VA pump, normally when keyway on the pump drive shaft is at the 11 O'clock position the pump is either in or almost in time but if the engine will not start but blows white smoke the pump is out of time by 1 Rev. Solution, scribe a mark on the drive hub and drive gear, remove the 3 cap screws holding the drive hub to the drive gear, put a socket on the drive shaft nut and rotate it 1 Rev in direction of pump rotation until the scribe marks line up again re-install cap screws, then start tractor, then do final static timing by crank pulley and timing window in pump.

So timing wise the pump was 180* out of time but since pump only turns 1/2 the engine speed the pump drive shaft had to be turned 360*.
What are your thoughts? 

PS, I never worked on the 6 cyl Neuss so I don't know if the 11 O'clock keyway position is different from 4 cyl but I suspect so as the idler gear has different markings for 3,4 and 6 cyl. 

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29 minutes ago, jimb2 said:

So timing wise the pump was 180* out of time but since pump only turns 1/2 the engine speed the pump drive shaft had to be turned 360*.
What are your thoughts? 

You just contradicted yourself.  

Pump turns half engine speed.  Turning the pump one revolution (360°) is the same as turning engine 2 revolutions (720°).  You would literally be putting it back in the same exact spot it was in by turning the pump 1 full revolution.  You should only turn it 180°, or 1/2 revolution. 

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4 hours ago, jimb2 said:

I have only turned the engine to get the 14* BTDC.
An example on 4 cyl Neuss German Diesel with Bosch VA pump, normally when keyway on the pump drive shaft is at the 11 O'clock position the pump is either in or almost in time but if the engine will not start but blows white smoke the pump is out of time by 1 Rev. Solution, scribe a mark on the drive hub and drive gear, remove the 3 cap screws holding the drive hub to the drive gear, put a socket on the drive shaft nut and rotate it 1 Rev in direction of pump rotation until the scribe marks line up again re-install cap screws, then start tractor, then do final static timing by crank pulley and timing window in pump.

So timing wise the pump was 180* out of time but since pump only turns 1/2 the engine speed the pump drive shaft had to be turned 360*.
What are your thoughts? 

PS, I never worked on the 6 cyl Neuss so I don't know if the 11 O'clock keyway position is different from 4 cyl but I suspect so as the idler gear has different markings for 3,4 and 6 cyl. 

As Jmech stated, you'd just be turning the pump shaft 1 turn, and all the insides turn right with it. Would accomplish zero! Everyone gets confused because the M100 AMERICAN BOSCH pump runs engine speed, so turning the pump hub 1 turn, will only turn the head 1/2 turn. I think Matt answered the op in the above reply. On a VA or VE the key slot will align with the number one outlet, when it's being timed to the engine. 

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One thing I've noticed a lot regarding this topic.  I've had people call in, all confused, because the number on the pump gear isn't there when they line up the mark on the flywheel with the pointer.  A lot of people give way too much importance on that number on the pump gear.  All that number is, is an indicator to tell you you're coming up on #1 TDC.  That's it.  And the instructions here in the GSS state that, but I've still had people call in confused on how to time a German engine.

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My apologies to everyone, I was wrong  and thank you to the experts that corrected me.
I learned something today so a good day for me.

 

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