International 434 3pt hitch moves slow with no lift power

[Joelgoodwin]

I’m having trouble with this tractor, the 3pt hitch will move up and down at high revs only but won’t lift 2 pounds.. power steering works at idle. 
 On the control valve the “fast&slow” spool it’s free turning like it’s not connected to anything but the knob pushes out with the tractor running seeming like there’s fluid pressure, I’m not sure how it works 

I’m stumped any help would be great! Thanks 

[J-Mech]

Tractor has auxiliary hydraulic valve plumbed in.  Can only run hydraulic remote or hitch.  Valve has to be opened for one function and closed for the other.  Don't move anything until someone can tell you which way is which.  I cannot remember.  Tractor may not be correctly plumbed, and severe damage can result if not properly set up and valve is open/closed.

@jimb2 or @snoshoe can you assist? 

[Joelgoodwin]

The auxiliary valve was plumed to the control valve or right back into the filler cap behide the seat, I removed it and hooked right to the control valve 

[J-Mech]

19 minutes ago, Joelgoodwin said:

The auxiliary valve was plumed to the control valve or right back into the filler cap behide the seat, I removed it and hooked right to the control valve 

I *think* it is plumbed correctly.  I believe the valve on left side of seat needs to be screwed in, but can't recall what valve on RH does.  Left hand valve may be stuck or broken. Wait for one of the others to jump in.  May be morning before they do. 

[snoshoe]

Left hand valve is flow divider and controls speed of hitch. I believe yours has a broken pin. There are other threads on this forum that detail that assembly. The valve on the right is the hitch isolation valve. It must be open for hitch operation and should be closed to operate an auxillary. The hose that goes auxillary must have flow stopped to operate hitch. Normaly this was just a coupler. Is that how it is hooked now? If an open center valve is plumbed in that line. Valve would have to be deadheaded to operate hitch. Jimb2 seems to know how to find the threads with pictures of that flow divider. You can try  a google search and see if you can find it that way.

[J-Mech]

13 minutes ago, snoshoe said:

The valve on the right is the hitch isolation valve. It must be open for hitch operation and should be closed to operate an auxillary.

That's what I couldn't remember.  Thanks! 

[jimb2]

Hi, I examined your photos of your 434 and the remote valve connection is in series with the 3pt which is good as you can use both without changing the right hand isolator valve. For your 434 the isolator valve should always be Open(Screwed out). As mentioned by J-Mech NEVER close the isolator valve and move the 3pt lift lever with the engine running or severe damage to the hydraulic pump can occur.

Re left hand flow control valve as the others have mentioned the roll pin is missing, either sheared off or someone took it apart and lost it, hopefully it is not sheared off and partially blocking hydraulic oil flow to the port into the 3pt hitch controls, see this previous thread on this site at the link below. When you remove the flow control valve look in the bore for parts of the roll pin or try a small mechanics magnet to fish it out. Flow control valve function, pushed IN a half turn locks it into Slow 3pt mode limiting the hydraulic flow to about 3 GPM, half turn in opposite direction to release and it should pop out and allow the full flow of about 6 GPM to the 3pt.

Next question, on the serial number plate on the right does it say made in the USA or Great Britain? Does it have a power steering assist on the left side from under the left foot rest up to the steering drag link? 

Read this thread and I tried posting a photo of the Flow control valve in that thread but it is very fuzzy.
Newbie needs help with hydraulic issue b414 - General IH - Red Power Magazine Community

[snoshoe]

35 minutes ago, jimb2 said:

remote valve connection is in series with the 3pt

Don't know how I missed that cut and braised line. Thanks Jim.

[Joelgoodwin]

I took the “fast&slow” apart and there is no pin through the spool, it’s does have power steering on the left side. And here’s the plate that’s on the tractor it’s hard to read

[jimb2]

According to tractordata.com the serial number would put your B414 at a late 1962 model. We had a late 1961 model with the same brakes as a B-275.
I noticed it has the better brakes, the other puzzling thing is it has the tin work of a later model 434 with the white side panels, the opening along the top of the hood to access the filler caps for fuel, rad and oil but it has the air breather through the hood where as the 434 had an air breather scoop behind the rad grill.

Could you please take some photos of the hydraulic pump(s) on the front right of engine and the remote hydraulic valve and its connections that is installed on the right rear fender.

Thanks
JimB 

Serial Numbers:
1961: 501 (diesel)
1962: 2575 (diesel)
1963: 14838 (diesel)
1964: 29647 (diesel)
1965: 42135 (diesel)
1966: 51664 (diesel)
1962: 501 (gasoline)
1963: 2159 (gasoline)
1964: 3995 (gasoline)
1965: 5699 (gasoline)
1966: 6345 (gasoline)

[Joelgoodwin]

Seems like The hydraulic pump has two pressure lines one goes to the power steering and the other to the control valve, and the hydraulic valve that was on the fender I removed and connected directly to the control valve, As for the Air vent and filler cap someone has cut the hood out that’s not where they originally should be. 

[J-Mech]

Wow.  This thing is a hydraulic modified nightmare.  Hydraulic hoses and different lines brazed on it all over.  Whole tractor is modified really.  Fuel pump hoses are cut off also. 

46 minutes ago, Joelgoodwin said:

the hydraulic valve that was on the fender I removed and connected directly to the control valve

I still don't understand this.  You've said it twice now.  If you removed the hydraulic valve on the fender, what did you connect directly to the "control valve"?  A picture would likely make more sense to be honest. 

[jimb2]

Thanks for photos they are very helpful.
So you definitely have a UK build B414 under a modified 434 hood.
Re hydraulic pump, this being a UK tractor it has two hydraulic pumps stacked one behind the other.
Front pump should supply 3pt, back pump for PS and they both use the under seat hydraulic reservoir.

I see where you have removed the remote valve and plumbed the high pressure hydraulic line direct into the input port of 3pt in front of the seat.
This is good as it eliminates the remote valve.

Suggested action plan:
1) Fix the flow control valve and search for the broken pin in the bore.
2) Clean the suction filter, see photo below with blue arrow.
     If you don't have Operator's Manual or Service manual, use the email function in top right of this web site to send me an email with your email and I can help.
3) Then refill the hydraulic reservoir, work the air out of the hydraulic system by lifting and lowering the 3pt and using the PS.

Other things I noticed:
1) Same as J-Mech, fuel lines have been changed to bypass lift pump.
2) Oil filter is completely missing and someone has installed a metal plate over the oil filter mounting hole in the block.

I would hope an oil filter was installed somewhere else?

[J-Mech]

14 minutes ago, jimb2 said:

I see where you have removed the remote valve and plumbed the high pressure hydraulic line direct into the input port of 3pt in front of the seat.

I see that now.  I just saw the hose going back and disappearing, but it just wraps around the plugs in.  I got it.

14 minutes ago, jimb2 said:

2) Oil filter is completely missing and someone has installed a metal plate over the oil filter mounting hole in the block.

I totally missed that.  Does this engine not filter all oil?  If not, then it would at least still have pressure.  If it does filter all oil, it cannot have oil pressure.  I'm assuming only bypass oil?  I'm not familiar with this engine. 

[snoshoe]

20 minutes ago, jimb2 said:

I see where you have removed the remote valve and plumbed the high pressure hydraulic line direct into the input port of 3pt in front of the seat.
This is good as it eliminates the remote valve

I don'know Jim. If valve was still plumbed. We could find out if it did anything. Then we would know if we had a hitch or pump problem.

[jimb2]

31 minutes ago, snoshoe said:

I don'know Jim. If valve was still plumbed. We could find out if it did anything. Then we would know if we had a hitch or pump problem.

Snoshoe, you are correct, it would be easier to put a pressure gauge on the output of the remote valve.
I am hoping it is a flow problem caused by the broken pin in the flow control valve and a clogged suction filter.

See also instructions for cleaning the suction filter. We always put the rear wheels in a ditch and the front wheels on the upward slope so we didn't have to drain the hydraulic reservoir as per instructions. Later Bradford, UK, tractors had a drain plug on the rear of the hydraulic reservoir but it was messy as well unless you had a piece of pipe to screw into the hole as soon as you removed the plug.

I also forgot about cleaning the Orifice Filter behind the big hex plug closest to the flow control valve and look for parts of the broken flow control pin in there as well.


 

[snoshoe]

Had thought of filter myself. Discounted it because steering is fine. Don't think flow control will fix problem. Agree both should be done. Beyond that can spend a lot of time on hitch only to find out pump is bad.

As to the orifice. Do you know which way this one works. Does a plugged orifice cause the valve to stay open or closed?

[Rod Smith]

When you get it fixed, the flow control valve should be set in the slow position if you are just using the hydraulics for the 3pt, if ran on the fast position, the 3pt draft control may be too jumpy/over responsive.  And like the others have said, make sure the isolation valve is open, I remember when I was young and my grandfather had to remind me of that, as you could hear the pump whine when the isolator valve became partially closed (I swear, it just seemed to partially close the more you got off and on the tractor as it seemed by leg would rub up against it) and I got told how much money a hydraulic pump would cost.  

[Joelgoodwin]

So I drained the hydraulic oil witch I put in new last week and it was white with bubbles? filter on the right hand side under the seat and the orifice screen, the main filter screen has been cut off completely and the orifice was dirty, cleaned it and put it back together, same thing just moves slow with no power, I did notice a leak around the PTO shaft but I’m not sure if that’s a part of the hydraulic System, now for the “fast and slow” how can I get that pin? Does anyone have a picture of what it should look like? I also seen in a diagram that there should be a spring witch isn’t there 

[jimb2]

21 hours ago, snoshoe said:

Had thought of filter myself. Discounted it because steering is fine. Don't think flow control will fix problem. Agree both should be done. Beyond that can spend a lot of time on hitch only to find out pump is bad.

As to the orifice. Do you know which way this one works. Does a plugged orifice cause the valve to stay open or closed?

Sorry I didn't get back on here sooner but trying to collect all my tax forms for the accountant for next week.

Above from Snoshoe, Re orifice filter, I believe it is just the high pressure filter on the input to the hydraulic control module and if it is plugged it restricts the flow into the 3pt.
Re PS, on the true UK, IIRC the PS pump has a common suction side with the 3pt pump but the PS return only being 3 GPM does not dump it's return into the 3pt reservoir but dumps it back into the suction line from the 3pt reservoir, so what I am trying to say is the suction filter in the 3pt reservoir can be partially clogged and the PS keeps working. 
Re PTO shaft leak has no connection to 3pt hydraulic oil unless it is an industrial version that uses the diff/trans as an additional hydraulic reservoir. You B414 is an agricultural model.

Re flow control valve, see photos below, the roll pin is circled, the other is the parts diagram and part numbers and the 3pt hydraulic flow diagram.
The flow control valve should have a piston and a spring in the bore, IIRC the way it works depending on the position of the flow control valve, in the Slow position the piston covers a portion of the hole in the bore and in the Fast the hole is completely open.

[snoshoe]

The orifice controls an unloading valve. According to posted schematic. I believe a plugged orifice is going to result in constant high pressure. Which would result in a toasted rear pump section. Problem could also be unloader stuck open or relief valve problem. Need some way to test pump before advising further.

Unloader is called regulator in schematic. I have seen it called flow control in parts pictures.