Jump to content

General TA Question


Recommended Posts

Since I have been on this site, I have noticed a fair amount of issues with TA's going bad or having troubles with them.

My nephew has a 1066 and a 966 with a TA on them. These tractors do not get used daily, only for field mowing and making hay. Truth be told, they probably only get about 300 hours a year on them. I'm guessing their in the 5000 hr range.

I have seen other places that you should leave them in the forward/back position when not needed to help them live longer.

My question is, is there a particular way to use the TA, to help with the longevity of it?

Thank you for your replies and help.

Link to post
Share on other sites

There is no truth to leaving the TA in one position or the other that adds to the longevity of them. 

What does make them last longer is keeping the transmission fluid and filter in good condition.  If the machines live outside, they can get water in the rear end oil.  Making sure the oil is good regularly, is important.  Regardless of hours, change the hydraulic filters once a year.  Second thing is keeping the T/A and clutch linkage in adjustment.  Depending on use, these adjustments may last a long time, but if the 300 hours a year used is with heavy use of the clutch or T/A they may need checked yearly.  Third, when using the T/A, DO NOT move the lever slowly.  Pull if back quickly, and throw it forward. These 3 things contribute to more failures than use ever will. 

  • Like 3
Link to post
Share on other sites

J-mech has the care and feeding side of the TA covered so I'll address the longevity:

The TA is a wear item, like the clutch, or tires.

If you could review the service histories on these tractors with TAs that are "always going bad" the last time the tractor was opened up for a TA would be an average of 30 years ago.

Replacing the TA is neither a convenient nor an inexpensive job, so it is put off or neglected until the tractor absolutely stops moving. The TA will often continue to pull in one side or the other so the TA could be "out" but the tractor still works. 

Long story short here, it is not like TAs go out randomly. They last for decades, thousands upon thousands of hours if they're not abused. A new TA, properly installed, will outlive your nephew should he be so unfortunate. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Matt Kirsch said:

The TA is a wear item, like the clutch, or tires.

I agree with you Matt, but I think a TA is a wear item more like an automatic transmission.  Some cars go out early on, but many go years on one.  Tires and clutches are guaranteed to be something you purchase at some point, unless you trade often.  However, I've seen clutches with a lot of hours/miles.

 

A lot of times, tractors who's T/A goes out "often" had someone put it in who didn't do something right.  I don't want to say that is always the case, but one way or another it was installation error or manufacturer error.  Like Matt said, a properly rebuilt and installed TA will last a long time. 

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

I saw a post or video somewhere that this guy believes a tractor with a hydraulic (I think)TA should never be shut off with the lever back. His belief was this is hard on the sprag clutch. I'm still undecided on this theory, but never against learning. 

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't think it matters if lever is back. The sprag isnt hyd activated. Hold the clutch down when shutting off so the engine stops and rocks back some makes sense to me. I always try to do that on my 666. Sounds smoother to me. Probably all in my head. I know its a different style of ta but still a sprag in there.

Link to post
Share on other sites
53 minutes ago, FarmerFixEmUp said:

I saw a post or video somewhere that this guy believes a tractor with a hydraulic (I think)TA should never be shut off with the lever back. His belief was this is hard on the sprag clutch. I'm still undecided on this theory, but never against learning. 

A hydraulic TA defaults to the low side when there is no hydraulic pressure, riding on the sprag.  The low side clutch also holds the same part of the planetary. So, no matter what position you leave it in, it's going to grab the sprag when you start it.  Myth busted. 

Mechanical, I don't see how it would make any difference at all. 

Besides.... there is no load on the gear train when you start it anyway.  So, no real load to the sprag on starting no matter what. 

Link to post
Share on other sites

I looked at the part drawing for a 1066 TA. The "Sprag" that is always mentioned, is this the entire unit that includes the disk's etc, or is it something specific?

There is a current post about a 574 with TA problems. A comment was made about the limited or non existence of parts for the TA's. I assume that the different size tractors used a different unit. Is the shortage of parts particular to the smaller, say "Utility" size tractors, or is this across the board. I realize that these tractors are 50 years old and NOS parts are running out, but I didn't know if someone was remaking them.

Thanks to everyone for your reply's.

Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Duntongw said:

but I didn't know if someone was remaking them.

TA's for the big tractors are plentiful.  Lots of aftermarket rebuilding them.  I don't forsee any issues there in the near or even somewhat distant future.  Lots of those tractors still in use.  

I'm not sure however, what the deal is with the Doncaster tractor T/A's.  That T/A was used well into the 80's, possibly even 90's with the 85 series.  I thought they were all the same, but I've only installed one in my career. 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Another thing I would like to add that hasn't been brought up in this thread is that you never want to use the ta to slow the tractor, like when you are on the road slowing for a driveway. You only want to pull that lever back when the tractor needs power and is under load.

  • Like 3
Link to post
Share on other sites
On 2/15/2021 at 7:12 PM, TractormanMike.mb said:

Another thing I would like to add that hasn't been brought up in this thread is that you never want to use the ta to slow the tractor, like when you are on the road slowing for a driveway. You only want to pull that lever back when the tractor needs power and is under load.

Not to mention the TA "shifts" every time you step on the clutch because the dump valve dumps the pressure to it.  

 

The other thing that's not mentioned is if you have a heavy load and you are going down a steep hill the high side clutches are much bigger and probably should be used instead of the low side so you don't over run the TA. 

 

And from the condition of some of these 40 plus year old tractors it's amazing anything on them still works! :) :)

 

 

  • Like 3
Link to post
Share on other sites
On 2/15/2021 at 9:54 AM, FarmerFixEmUp said:

I saw a post or video somewhere that this guy believes a tractor with a hydraulic (I think)TA should never be shut off with the lever back. His belief was this is hard on the sprag clutch. I'm still undecided on this theory, but never against learning. 

This is for the mechanical ta- 560, 656, etc. shutting the tractor off in direct can damage the sprag. Since they are basically a one way clutch, as the engine dies it will rock backwards slightly causing wear. A person should push in the clutch as the engine is shut off, or in the instance of stationary use being shut off while not seated you should have the ta back.

Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, brewcrew said:

This is for the mechanical ta- 560, 656, etc. shutting the tractor off in direct can damage the sprag. Since they are basically a one way clutch, as the engine dies it will rock backwards slightly causing wear. A person should push in the clutch as the engine is shut off, or in the instance of stationary use being shut off while not seated you should have the ta back.

Myth.  No truth to this.  The slight rocking back of the engine releasing the sprag hold doesn't hurt it one little bit.  You do know that in the automatic transmission in your car it also has sprag clutches, that in certain gears run backwards, the opposite direction of how they hold?  Saying it hurts a sprag to "roll backwards" is like saying it's hard on a diode to let current flow through it.  (Because a diode is meant to prevent current from flowing backwards, just as a sprag prevents shaft rotation in only one direction.) Twice now this was stated and it is demonstrably false. 

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Here is what I think :), is hard on a mechanical or hydraulic TA is letting having the clutch down and the tractor rolling backwards and letting the clutch up a bit and having the sprag catch.  I cringe when that happens and I've done it many times not intentionally, even had it lift the front wheels off the ground.  Or rolling forward in reverse and doing the same.  Some will say the adjustment is incorrect, yes, I know you can adjust it to release the TA clutch (or the dump valve) first and eliminate that, but I hate letting the clutch out and having the TA shift to direct after the main clutch is engaged.  I believe when adjusted per the book the TA clutch locks up slightly before the main clutch, agree?  I've loaded a jillion tons of silage with my 666 and Farmhand F11, jam into the pile, push the clutch down just enough to stop forward motion but not enough to release the sprag, curl the bucket to fill it then push the clutch on down to let off the pressure.  Yes, I eventually ruined the TA but it was years of doing that, pretty tough unit I'd say.   I too don't like seeing the rockback of the engine when shutdown being caught by the sprag, so I always push the clutch down when shutting the engine off.

Link to post
Share on other sites
42 minutes ago, farmall57 said:

Here is what I think :), is hard on a mechanical or hydraulic TA is letting having the clutch down and the tractor rolling backwards and letting the clutch up a bit and having the sprag catch.

The sprag has already caught and is not moving. The direct drive clutch is what is engaging stopping motion. Yes it puts a load on the sprag or overrunning clutch but which is being abused more? As far as shutting off. Shifting under load puts far more load on the sprag than the rollback of a dying engine. Use your TAs one side or the other will eventually wear out regardless of what you do. You might as well get some good out of it.

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, J-Mech said:

Myth.  No truth to this.  The slight rocking back of the engine releasing the sprag hold doesn't hurt it one little bit.  You do know that in the automatic transmission in your car it also has sprag clutches, that in certain gears run backwards, the opposite direction of how they hold?  Saying it hurts a sprag to "roll backwards" is like saying it's hard on a diode to let current flow through it.  (Because a diode is meant to prevent current from flowing backwards, just as a sprag prevents shaft rotation in only one direction.) Twice now this was stated and it is demonstrably false. 

It’s been a long time since it was explained to me, with a cut-away for better understanding. Maybe sprag is the wrong term. It was little rollers in the mechanical ta which would get a flat spot in them. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, brewcrew said:

It’s been a long time since it was explained to me, with a cut-away for better understanding. Maybe sprag is the wrong term. It was little rollers in the mechanical ta which would get a flat spot in them. 

That is a sprag.  Yes, they will get flat spots in them.  But it isn't caused by engine shut down, or clutching.  It is simply wear from holding the load.  That is why they get replaced when worn or on a rebuild.  Automatic transmission sprags wear the same way.  If they look bad, or pre-rebuild diagnostics tell us they aren't holding, we replace them.  It's just normal wear. 

Link to post
Share on other sites

The Oliver/White 2 and 3 speeds as well as the MM Ampli-torque used a sprag as well.  Many a time rebuilding one and the old sprag would fall apart all over the floor. There is a local machine shop that would rebuild the shaft were the sprag ran on.

One new mechanic didn't think reading the service manual was necessary on the details. The sprag went into the tail shaft housing of the Olivers. You always grabbed the output shaft and it had to turn free clockwise if I remember correct or the sprag was in backwards and had to be flipped. He didn't read that part and re-installed the engine/three speed. the tractor wouldn't move. Whoops!

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 2/15/2021 at 9:54 AM, FarmerFixEmUp said:

I saw a post or video somewhere that this guy believes a tractor with a hydraulic (I think)TA should never be shut off with the lever back. His belief was this is hard on the sprag clutch. I'm still undecided on this theory, but never against learning. 

An old wives tale.

Absolutely nothing to it.

I leave them forward all the time unless needed.

Is that the best way, "Who Knows".

It is just the way I do it.

Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, cedar farm said:

The Oliver/White 2 and 3 speeds as well as the MM Ampli-torque used a sprag as well.  Many a time rebuilding one and the old sprag would fall apart all over the floor. There is a local machine shop that would rebuild the shaft were the sprag ran on.

One new mechanic didn't think reading the service manual was necessary on the details. The sprag went into the tail shaft housing of the Olivers. You always grabbed the output shaft and it had to turn free clockwise if I remember correct or the sprag was in backwards and had to be flipped. He didn't read that part and re-installed the engine/three speed. the tractor wouldn't move. Whoops!

Back years ago there were no rebuilt TA assembly. I think they only came around in the mid 70s having factory rebuilt units. The real old guys from when I was very young used to rebuild the TA. Every one of them. Dads 806 had the sprague replaced.  One of the ih service manuals had this topic in it about right installation of sprague. We had a box of parts from dealer that was all their left over gaskets / seals and misc parts for a TA. And yes the Oliver , white used the same thing as did auto transmission. John Deere saw the foolishness of this stuff and built a planetary 2 speed with just a set of clutch discs and another set of discs that acted as a brake. I have said it many times before. If IHC would have spent 3 dollars more building  the TA they would have had an indestructible unit, another high and two more low discs in a TA you would have never wore them out. Plus sprague that was proper size to handle horsepower although with two more low discs original design would have worked okay

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Maybe some of you smart guys can help me!  I have a 55 utility with this thing.  First thing the tractor seems to be even in low to be geared high.  it has a working amplifier i guess!

 

since it is used to just move dirt and gravel around the place and not a lot of it at that i just use low the ta is there but not used!  I have yet to see the value of it but i do not farm!  I really like the tractor hard to get in and out of though! I do not see how fast it will go on the road either!  LOL

  • Confused 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

My dad had a 300U 1955 with loader, got a real work out  using loader. The 300 also got used in heavy tillage and later on  it was used as a planter, the TA was used at end of fields for turning and back to direct drive after turn. It has the original TA , still going strong, adjustment and maintenance of clutch and TA is the answer.

Link to post
Share on other sites
29 minutes ago, cwop said:

I have a 55 utility with this thing.  First thing the tractor seems to be even in low to be geared high.  it has a working amplifier i guess!

What is a 55?  A 1955?  As far as tractors go, the year is about useless.  A model number is what we need.

I have no idea what you are saying after stating the year..... 

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 2/14/2021 at 11:42 AM, J-Mech said:

There is no truth to leaving the TA in one position or the other that adds to the longevity of them. 

What does make them last longer is keeping the transmission fluid and filter in good condition.  If the machines live outside, they can get water in the rear end oil.  Making sure the oil is good regularly, is important.  Regardless of hours, change the hydraulic filters once a year.  Second thing is keeping the T/A and clutch linkage in adjustment.  Depending on use, these adjustments may last a long time, but if the 300 hours a year used is with heavy use of the clutch or T/A they may need checked yearly.  Third, when using the T/A, DO NOT move the lever slowly.  Pull if back quickly, and throw it forward. These 3 things contribute to more failures than use ever will. 

 

48 minutes ago, J-Mech said:

What is a 55?  A 1955?  As far as tractors go, the year is about useless.  A model number is what we need.

I have no idea what you are saying after stating the year..... 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...