Back wired receptacles

[1586 Jeff]

So do I need to start a separate thread on Backstabbed WAGOs???

[vtfireman85]

1 hour ago, yellowrosefarm said:

So, the "pigtail" being referred to here is a wire nut connection with the 2 pass through wires mated to a single wire which feeds the receptacle? Instead of passing through on the receptacle itself?

Correct 

[m.c.farmerboy]

Hey VT, want to come to Maine and wire my new House?

[Edsfarms]

2 hours ago, vtfireman85 said:

Any inspector that saw this would say go back and start over. The outer skin of wire carries the majority of the current. If you could measure current on the outside and current on the inside  (impossible) you would find the current at the center of the conductor almost negligible. By wrapping around a screw and continuing on you are damaging that conductor effectively mid stream. Also at play here is a violation of bending requirements. 5x the diameter of the conductor is as tight as it is supposed to be bent midstream, tighter than that damages the structure of the copper (aluminum is worse) and all of this creates a high resistance point and resistance =heat. 
is it 100x better than a back stab? Absolutely, but would never fly on an inspected job. Personally i like a good solid pigtailed connection, meaning i am not relying on the receptacle to carry load along down through circuit. In the average home this doesn’t happen in all places because it takes too long, and it is just my OCD, not a requirement. But kitchen and bathroom circuits get it in every case. 

Thanks for the electrical lesson!  ( Good stuff) You have upped my home/barn wiring going forward!   Don't think I'll be going back to redo my the circuit's I have wired in the past,  unless I am taking them apart for another reason.  

 

For fun I might wire a test circuit and Megger it to see what the resistance is on a center strip and looped around a screw.  Just to see what the resistance is.   

[Edsfarms]

2 hours ago, vtfireman85 said:

Any inspector that saw this would say go back and start over. The outer skin of wire carries the majority of the current. If you could measure current on the outside and current on the inside  (impossible) you would find the current at the center of the conductor almost negligible. By wrapping around a screw and continuing on you are damaging that conductor effectively mid stream. Also at play here is a violation of bending requirements. 5x the diameter of the conductor is as tight as it is supposed to be bent midstream, tighter than that damages the structure of the copper (aluminum is worse) and all of this creates a high resistance point and resistance =heat. 
is it 100x better than a back stab? Absolutely, but would never fly on an inspected job. Personally i like a good solid pigtailed connection, meaning i am not relying on the receptacle to carry load along down through circuit. In the average home this doesn’t happen in all places because it takes too long, and it is just my OCD, not a requirement. But kitchen and bathroom circuits get it in every case. 

Thanks for the electrical lesson!  ( Good stuff) You have upped my home/barn wiring going forward!   Don't think I'll be going back to redo my the circuit's I have wired in the past,  unless I am taking them apart for another reason.  

 

For fun I might wire a test circuit and Megger it to see what the resistance is on a center strip and looped around a screw.  Just to see what the resistance is.   

[vtfireman85]

1 minute ago, Edsfarms said:

Thanks for the electrical lesson!  ( Good stuff) You have upped my home/barn wiring going forward!   Don't think I'll be going back to redo my the circuit's I have wired in the past,  unless I am taking them apart for another reason.  

 

For fun I might wire a test circuit and Megger it to see what the resistance is on a center strip and looped around a screw.  Just to see what the resistance is.   

Realistically, it’s not an issue, personally i find it difficult to work with and almost impossible to get the wire into the box unbroken. It was common to see in conduit runs, with stranded. 

[vtfireman85]

46 minutes ago, m.c.farmerboy said:

Hey VT, want to come to Maine and wire my new House?

That’d be fun, Portland or further north? 

[Rawleigh99]

2 hours ago, yellowrosefarm said:

So, the "pigtail" being referred to here is a wire nut connection with the 2 pass through wires mated to a single wire which feeds the receptacle? Instead of passing through on the receptacle itself?

For my post, yes.

[m.c.farmerboy]

1 minute ago, vtfireman85 said:

That’d be fun, Portland or further north? 

up north No inspector, I'll feed ya put you up and pay you cash,

[mikem]

How big was the breaker/fuse/penny on that circuit???

Just wonderin

Mike

[Edsfarms]

2 hours ago, yellowrosefarm said:

So, the "pigtail" being referred to here is a wire nut connection with the 2 pass through wires mated to a single wire which feeds the receptacle? Instead of passing through on the receptacle itself?

For me  too,  I this scenario it would be 3 wires, twisted together with linemen pliers, line in, line out and short wire running to outlet gold screw.  wire nut together,  and if you are OCD electrical tape wrapped around wire nut clockwise direction to secure wire nut to wire and electrical tape around the outlet body and screws.  

[Rawleigh99]

I only wrap the receptacle body if it is going into a metal box.  I don't know what everyone else does.

[vtfireman85]

1 minute ago, Rawleigh99 said:

I only wrap the receptacle body if it is going into a metal box.  I don't know what everyone else does.

I don’t ever, just collects flammable crap. They make rubber bands for that purpose. If the device is properly installed, there is no need. If people who shouldn’t be in there are that is their problem. 

[vtfireman85]

For those who are interested, i wanted to time myself so I recorded myself. These 2 wires are for kitchen counter circuits and were going to share a breaker. I “pigtailed” as we have been discussing. 

THIS IS NOT MY PANEL AND NOT MY WORK INSIDE IT! 

 

[Rawleigh99]

Ya, I wouldn't want to be blamed for that birdsnest either!

[12_Guy]

1 hour ago, vtfireman85 said:

For those who are interested, i wanted to time myself so I recorded myself. These 2 wires are for kitchen counter circuits and were going to share a breaker. I “pigtailed” as we have been discussing. 

THIS IS NOT MY PANEL AND NOT MY WORK INSIDE IT! 

 

Hate to tell you since you are the resident “expert” but that is a code violation. The panel is not to be used as a junction box so no wirenuts allowed inside.  In reality it is fairly common. I try to avoid it but have been guilty. 
Most inspectors around here have no clue but there have been a few who would not allow them in the panel. 

[vtfireman85]

1 minute ago, 12_Guy said:

Hate to tell you since you are the resident “expert” but that is a code violation. The panel is not to be used as a junction box so no wirenuts allowed inside.  In reality it is fairly common. I try to avoid it but have been guilty. 
Most inspectors around here have no clue but there have been a few who would not allow them in the panel. 

Code article please? 

[mark60]

code changed some years back.  used to be a violation is now allowable.

[jass1660]

Boy the Amish sure do have it easy.....

[vtfireman85]

We have had similar discussions with the inspector (whom I have a lot of respect for, he has sat on several code making panels, the man knows his stuff) and his answer has always been that you are limited by bend radius requirements and you are held to volume allowance, but there is no issue with joining wires in a panelboard. 
i have sent him a message and asked him to site any code article related, i also just went and read article 408 in its entirety while eating lunch and find no mention. 
i will be interested to hear what @12_Guy comes up with, i love a good code debate! 

[vtfireman85]

1 hour ago, 12_Guy said:

Hate to tell you since you are the resident “expert” but that is a code violation. The panel is not to be used as a junction box so no wirenuts allowed inside.  In reality it is fairly common. I try to avoid it but have been guilty. 
Most inspectors around here have no clue but there have been a few who would not allow them in the panel. 

312.8 (A)(1)-(3)

[yellowrosefarm]

Is that tool in the video made for wire nuts or is it just a normal nut driver being used for that?   And, if a special tool, does it work on any wire nuts or do you have to have a matching brand, or what ever?  I've only ever used my fingers or a pair of pliers, but Aurther-itus could probably benefit from this tool.

[12_Guy]

6 hours ago, vtfireman85 said:

Code article please? 

I have no documentation but there were two inspectors here who would not allow it. I have heard this from a few sources so I accepted it as the rule. I haven't seen any point of keeping up with the code since we are still working under the '08 code last I have heard. I have heard talk that we were going to approve the '20 code but it literally takes an act of our state legislature to adopt a new version. I don't think I will hold my breath. 

Regardless I don't  think it is a good practice as many panels are jammed full enough already. Once in a while you will find one that someone seemed to care enough to be neat in their workmanship as I strive to do but many are a rat's nest. 

[12_Guy]

Thought you guys might enjoy seeing this superb connection I found the other day. As you can see they thought it was a good idea to tape the connection. Too bad they didn’t understand that the wirenut was to go on first and then the tape. This further proves my theory that taped wirenuts are for amateurs. Whenever I see a taped nut I cringe because you can usually pull it off without removing the tape. The tape is literally the only thing holding the nut in place.
This is a new level of stupidity. If you look close you can see the “threads” where the wirenut was on the white connection. 

[vtfireman85]

1 hour ago, 12_Guy said:

I have no documentation but there were two inspectors here who would not allow it. I have heard this from a few sources so I accepted it as the rule. I haven't seen any point of keeping up with the code since we are still working under the '08 code last I have heard. I have heard talk that we were going to approve the '20 code but it literally takes an act of our state legislature to adopt a new version. I don't think I will hold my breath. 

Regardless I don't  think it is a good practice as many panels are jammed full enough already. Once in a while you will find one that someone seemed to care enough to be neat in their workmanship as I strive to do but many are a rat's nest. 

Inspectors in every case are the AHJ, now and then you get one who is not satisfied enforcing code, they want to write it. I really really like being inspected, i have a stamp of approval behind my work and someone else to vouch for me. It also keeps the playing field level. In VT, we do not have inspection in single family owner occupied and I sorely wish we did. Many interoperate no inspections to mean no code. 
re:cluttered panels, I agree there is all together too much BS in panels as it is, however  it surely would be a difficult world if we could not make room or consolidate or extend within a panel. Remember, in article 90 or 100 (my book is in the truck) we are supposed to execute work in a “Neat and Workman Like Manner” doing so would ensured as tidy a panel as was possible. Unfortunately it is a hard rule to enforce.