New Englander Posted January 30, 2021 Author Share Posted January 30, 2021 So due to the passionate responses either way I started looking for more info, (shocking, I know), anyway. I found several Youtube videos and one caught my eye. In that one the presenter compared a genuine with a lookalike. I figured here we go, the copy is going to fail miserably. While the copy did fail first it was at 150 amps on a 25 amp rated connector, which I thought was quite impressive. The presenter kept increasing the load in about 25 amp increments. At 100 amps the copper wire started to turn color but the connectors both soldiered on. At about 125 the lookalike started to smoke and at 150 or so, it melted. The real one also melted a bit but stayed essentially intact. All my wiring on planes was essentially low voltage or signal strength, except the Jurassic Jets which had 115/208 400 cycle. Never anything but crimp ring terminals or connector pins. For entertainment, an L1011 generator was 90KVA as I remember. It had three engine driven plus the APU and all could parallel - enough to run a small village. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeeper61 Posted January 30, 2021 Share Posted January 30, 2021 1 hour ago, Sresites said: This is one of my control cabinets I designed for a project going on right now. Been doing this for over 23 years. All Wago terminal blocks mounted on DIN rail. These are the screwless type. Nice work The screwless type are the norm now I still like the screw type easer to tap for collecting data Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomH Posted January 30, 2021 Share Posted January 30, 2021 5 hours ago, lorenzo said: There’s no way I would get on a step ladder and work 277 hot . Basically one leg of 460. When I find those type connectors I cut em off and use wire nuts. Sometimes we just don't have a choice, which is why having to cut a hot 277V is my least favorite option. 5 hours ago, lorenzo said: Yes but I can show you plenty of situations around here where they expect you to do it hot . See above...lol. A case might be: lamps/ballast out in a biology prep lab and needs to be fixed asap. Lights on same circuit as main lab next door with class in progress. Soooo this is where the luminaire disconnects are you're friend! Honestly I have never encountered a Wago or similar connector that failed with the one (big) exception of installer malfunction. Not properly seating the wires in the connector. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Missouri Mule Posted January 30, 2021 Share Posted January 30, 2021 3 hours ago, jeeper61 said: You don't like the Screw Type Terminal Blocks ? They are old school As with any bar type distribution they need to be mounted in an enclosure Almost all industrial cabinets now use the DIN rail mounted Screw Type Terminal Blocks, breakers power supplies, etc. No. I dont like wago's. I'm like VT. You will NOT find a wago on my truck. Where I work screw type terminal blocks like shown with slide links and the round stud are standard. Also ring terminals are required not forks. Too much vibration in this place. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Missouri Mule Posted January 30, 2021 Share Posted January 30, 2021 1 hour ago, New Englander said: So due to the passionate responses either way I started looking for more info, (shocking, I know), anyway. I found several Youtube videos and one caught my eye. In that one the presenter compared a genuine with a lookalike. I figured here we go, the copy is going to fail miserably. While the copy did fail first it was at 150 amps on a 25 amp rated connector, which I thought was quite impressive. The presenter kept increasing the load in about 25 amp increments. At 100 amps the copper wire started to turn color but the connectors both soldiered on. At about 125 the lookalike started to smoke and at 150 or so, it melted. The real one also melted a bit but stayed essentially intact. All my wiring on planes was essentially low voltage or signal strength, except the Jurassic Jets which had 115/208 400 cycle. Never anything but crimp ring terminals or connector pins. For entertainment, an L1011 generator was 90KVA as I remember. It had three engine driven plus the APU and all could parallel - enough to run a small village. Add years of wear and tear and expansion and contraction to wire. Now throw some corrosion in the mix. Not me. I twist my wires with lineman pliers and put a good hard twist on my wire nuts. I prefer the 3m skirted wirenuts where I have room. Never liked the old school reds buchanon style. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Missouri Mule Posted January 30, 2021 Share Posted January 30, 2021 5 hours ago, lorenzo said: There’s no way I would get on a step ladder and work 277 hot . Basically one leg of 460. When I find those type connectors I cut em off and use wire nuts. I changed more 277v ballasts and transformers hot by FAR then de energized. Businesses dont like you to turn off all the lights. You just get accustomed to it. I'd take a hit of 277v lighting any day over getting between the nuetral of a ckt with a shared nuetral. That gets more guys in trouble by far. My lights are off I'm good.... negative ghost rider. Next thing you know theres about 4 ceiling tiles laying on the ground busted, a pile of grid bent, 6' ladder laying on its side, and an electrician moaning and groaning. Been there seen it 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oleman Posted January 30, 2021 Share Posted January 30, 2021 I learned my basics electronics on USN Ships and there were no quick disconnect anything in/on the ships electrical systems. Everything was crimped connectors and either mating connectors or terminal lugs on male or female terminal strips. The male connectors and nuts are easier to work with than screws are better because the lugs will stay on the terminals. I started in 1960 and am still active in the industry, I still adhere to the no quick disconnect philosophy. I like PCB's that terminate in a male terminal strip. BUT screw terminal strips are more common. My wiring always ends at a terminal lug unless someone spec's something different. Yes I have used solder terminals terminated at a terminal strip. I see stuff coming out of China that would never have been used on a USN ship. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
New Englander Posted January 30, 2021 Author Share Posted January 30, 2021 13 minutes ago, oleman said: solder terminals Totally frowned upon in aircraft except maybe in electronics but most new electronics have little to no solder except the wave soldered PC boards, everything else is crimp and most connectors will have gold plated contacts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevingweq Posted January 30, 2021 Share Posted January 30, 2021 First off I am not an electrician, I am asking for opinions from you guys on the quality or soundness of these twisted connections Are they proper and safe ? I am just wondering whether I wasted my money on the Gizmo that does them ,Very very quickly ,,By hand or with drill It strips and twists in about 3 seconds Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vtfireman85 Posted January 30, 2021 Share Posted January 30, 2021 20 minutes ago, Kevingweq said: First off I am not an electrician, I am asking for opinions from you guys on the quality or soundness of these twisted connections Are they proper and safe ? I am just wondering whether I wasted my money on the Gizmo that does them ,Very very quickly ,,By hand or with drill It strips and twists in about 3 seconds I would throw that thing in the garbage. Looks sloppy and mutilated. Gimme a couple minutes, I’ll show you how 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vtfireman85 Posted January 30, 2021 Share Posted January 30, 2021 My apologies, this is a little sloppy, my cellar tools are cast offs and i was struggling with the slip joint pliers, I would normally use lineman’s pliers. strip a couple inches with quality strippers that DO NOT score the wire, align the strands at the insulation, never mind the loose ends. Gently start to twist right hand clockwise, dont try to grab all 4 and go for it or they will wad up. Get them in alignment and laying beside each other nicely before you really start your twist. You want at least 2 full turns outside the skirt of the wire nut, in this case 4 #12 is what these are rated to so that is what i used, if you have 3-4 #14 solid or a mix you can do this just with the wire nut and nut driver. More conductors require some efforts to get them in properly. not to be a prick, but that tool should be tossed. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevingweq Posted January 31, 2021 Share Posted January 31, 2021 Very nice !! and thank you for the caliper measurements Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zleinenbach Posted January 31, 2021 Share Posted January 31, 2021 So just when did this fancy 5/16 nutdriver trick happen? it took me 33 years to figure out that craftsman screwdriver ha does were made for a wrench to fit over... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vtfireman85 Posted January 31, 2021 Share Posted January 31, 2021 24 minutes ago, zleinenbach said: So just when did this fancy 5/16 nutdriver trick happen? it took me 33 years to figure out that craftsman screwdriver ha does were made for a wrench to fit over... At least 30 years, works best with a green Lee or my Ideal ratcheting multi driver. Dad uses a socket and adapter with an impact.. but i don’t like the results Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zleinenbach Posted January 31, 2021 Share Posted January 31, 2021 12 minutes ago, vtfireman85 said: At least 30 years, works best with a green Lee or my Ideal ratcheting multi driver. Dad uses a socket and adapter with an impact.. but i don’t like the results It’s ironic this showed up today... two service calls yesterday were for loose connections (neutrals no less ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vtfireman85 Posted January 31, 2021 Share Posted January 31, 2021 5 minutes ago, zleinenbach said: It’s ironic this showed up today... two service calls yesterday were for loose connections (neutrals no less ) Ain’t hard to do it right, just gotta care 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
12_Guy Posted January 31, 2021 Share Posted January 31, 2021 Or do it this way. Sorry I don't have pics but you will get the idea. Step one. Strip the specified length of insulation. Step two. Insert the wires into a WAGO connector. Step three. Move on to something else. Time is money and you don't have time to screw around with some five or six decade old tradition that while it might provide a good connection is outdated and time consuming. And unnecessary. Sorry Seth just calling it as I see it. No disrespect intended to you or your fine looking connection. BTW a day,a month or a year from now you want to add a wire to your connection. You just plug it in instead of starting over again. You can remove one just as easily. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vtfireman85 Posted January 31, 2021 Share Posted January 31, 2021 10 minutes ago, 12_Guy said: Time is money and you don't have time to screw around with some five or six decade old tradition that while it might provide a good connection is outdated and time consuming. And unnecessary. I hear you, but money is money too. I don't see the math here. I will however give them a looking into. I see value in checking out new products. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
12_Guy Posted January 31, 2021 Share Posted January 31, 2021 35 minutes ago, vtfireman85 said: I hear you, but money is money too. I don't see the math here. I will however give them a looking into. I see value in checking out new products. What is your time worth. Not any of my business but I assume $.50-$1.00 a minute. You can't waste much time on a wirenut that costs a few penny's less. I just noticed that you are comparing the lever nuts. They are great and will work well with stranded wire. For solid wires in residential work the push in connectors will suffice and are likely cheaper. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vtfireman85 Posted January 31, 2021 Share Posted January 31, 2021 9 minutes ago, 12_Guy said: What is your time worth. Not any of my business but I assume $.50-$1.00 a minute. You can't waste much time on a wirenut that costs a few penny's less. I am not sure how long it takes you to install a wirenut... i am pretty efficient. I can see value in these things if in fact they are a drastically better connector than the competition, they look well designed compared to the competition. But 4-6x more per device that i use literally thousands of per year, when i am getting paid by the hour to install them, i dont see how they are a savings. Instill have to strip the wire , so if i save 5 -10seconds per connection on average even 15 seconds doesn’t justify the cost. And i am still not convinced it is a better connection. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vtfireman85 Posted January 31, 2021 Share Posted January 31, 2021 @12_Guy please don’t let my disagreement here with you come out as a lack of respect for your opinion here. I think we need to have a competition here, i propose a race, 2 gang plastic box, 3 12-2 romex with 2 duplex outlets. You use your methods, ill use mine. It seems the only way ? 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
New Englander Posted January 31, 2021 Author Share Posted January 31, 2021 4 minutes ago, vtfireman85 said: @12_Guy please don’t let my disagreement here with you come out as a lack of respect for your opinion here. I think we need to have a competition here, i propose a race, 2 gang plastic box, 3 12-2 romex with 2 duplex outlets. You use your methods, ill use mine. It seems the only way ? I love it! Some side bets too! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1586 Jeff Posted January 31, 2021 Share Posted January 31, 2021 7 hours ago, vtfireman85 said: @12_Guy please don’t let my disagreement here with you come out as a lack of respect for your opinion here. I think we need to have a competition here, i propose a race, 2 gang plastic box, 3 12-2 romex with 2 duplex outlets. You use your methods, ill use mine. It seems the only way ? Are you going to have your Emma Watson dropping the green flag and waving the checkered flag? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ihfan4life Posted January 31, 2021 Share Posted January 31, 2021 35 minutes ago, 1586 Jeff said: Are you going to have your Emma Watson dropping the green flag and waving the checkered flag? That’s an unfair distraction for Seth...?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Downs Posted January 31, 2021 Share Posted January 31, 2021 This is starting to resemble an oil thread.........? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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