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4 cylinder Cummins into an IH tractor?


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2 hours ago, Sask466 said:

Has anyone have first hand experience with a 4BT in a 7xx or 8xx tractor?  I wonder if the “excessive” vibration of that motor is noticeable with these tractors?  I know the 4bt guys that swap these motors into 1/2 tons and stuff complain about that a lot. We had one in an 8820 swather and you could tell it was a bit of a vibrator, even with it mounted far in the back.  

But there is a lot more rigidity and mass in a tractor, so maybe not an issue?  I would be favouring the 6bt if it fits okay.  I cant see the 6bt being a issue running at lower horsepower levels.  Lots of the older tractors had massive engines compared to their hp; the 2090 case comes to mind.  
 

These 5.9’s in old dodges would have sat around idling a lot, driving in city traffic, etc.  They would have spent lots of time running part throttle and developing low hp.  Up here in the Canadian Prairies they had wet-stacking issues, but that was mostly from guys letting their trucks idle excessively in excessively cold weather. 

It’s funny how the 5.9 has become such a legend of longevity.  It’s really no more durable than any other good inline 6 diesel in my opinion.  Sure they can go 500,000+ in the odd dodge truck, but that’s really a low stress application.  Rarely is that engine producing 200+hp all day long in a 3/4 ton truck.
 

855 Cummins used to do 15000hrs in 400hp highway trucks, and were getting tired in 300hp Versatile’s by 5000 or 6000hrs.  I think longevity really comes down to the application.   

Our neighbour had a 5.9 in a mid-90’s Rogator sprayer.  I was 180hp and often in wet/soft field conditions.   That engine was fully, fully wore out in 4500hrs.  It got a major OH at that time.  But that poor engine would have worked its guts out pretty 100% of the time.  

Good 4bt’s also seem to cost way more that a 6bt, like also twice as much it seems.  I’m not set on IH vs Cummins, but I will take a six over a four-banger anytime I can.  A more modern six would make an already good IH tractor better in my opinion. 

 

It is like John Deere to put it frankly. The Cummins bt  have their share of problems. Early cracked blocks, timing cover and front case leaks are continuous. But they start and run. And they were a bit more durable than the older v8 diesels. 

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Love it. I'm not even involved. 😂   I'd do a Cummins swap.  Think I can shoe horn a 4B into my 284?  If I thought I could and it wasn't overkill I would! Seriously looking at Kubota engines

But why?? The IH engines are much better than those sleeveless rattle trap cummins engines. 

I’m gonna start by saying I’ve never had the pleasure of owning a ih diesel we had 706 gas when I was a kid and I preferred it to other tractor s we had then because of how it drove straight on the ro

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I’m gonna start by saying I’ve never had the pleasure of owning a ih diesel we had 706 gas when I was a kid and I preferred it to other tractor s we had then because of how it drove straight on the road and I could put out 4x6 bales of hay and not have to steer with the brakes we bought a 806 gas for a couple thousand 11 years ago with the intention of doing this swap I was lucky and found two two wheel drive first gens for there engines I have 5500 or less total in the tractor and the swap it now lives on the tmr mixer it cranks good and sips fuel I do wish it had a cab to keep the rain off me though my swap is not as clean as most I’ve seen but it’s a low budget chore tractor that was originally a gas I’d do another in a heartbeat if I could find another cheap gas 806 

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19 hours ago, Farmall Doctor said:

Well, i guess i had better just plan on scrapping my 15,000 hour Farmall 706 D282 because it's just awful then. Seems silly, because it always starts, even though it's pretty well worn in at this point. The 656 Diesel will be sad too, because it spent it's life between '67 and '79 on hammer mill duty all winter and never needed a block heater because it never failed to start no matter how cold it got. 

It's funny how closed minded people are about IH products on this forum.. Bash any IH product all day long, but don't dare say anything negative about their dodge diesel pickup engine or a frickin' deere, or look out! 

Really???? I read this thread from start to finish before I said a word. BASH BASH BASH that junk Cummins  Well I owned a POS 706 with a 282 in it and I wanted to start it on fire more times than not.   And after seeing my buddies 706 with a 5.9 Cummins in it a driving it ........... ITS AWESOME !!!  He did a nice job on the swap and it runs great,smooth and tons of power while sipping fuel. So WHY do you think the newer tractors and combines have Cummins engines?  Could it be that they are JUNK and gets them repeat repairs? 

Its this guys tractor and he can do as he likes for his situation.  And its BS like this why I rarely post anything anymore ............ HOW DARE I have a different opinion.   Plus I hate powerstroke and the god almighty 7.3    I dont have a boat therefore I dont need an anchor .     Carry on .......... I dont care

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A 4bt installed in a tractor application MUST be an internally balanced engine or you will hate it.  Look at the C/IH 5120 and the late 5220 to see what that balancer looks like and to see the differences from early to late.  Is a very hard to find the balanced engine used unless you go to Ag related Parts yards. Balancer kits can be purchased individually but are pricey.

But a balanced version of the 4B or 4BT makes a sweet combination in your smaller tractors,  For a 706 I think a 6 cylinder is a better choice. You can fit a 6B or 6BT in very nicely, and have sold them to fit about anything IH on up into the 86 series.  We can still order the 4 and 6 cylinders "New" with the components you wish, to make installation easy for under 10K and the 4 cylinder balanced for about 12K. Which is a lot of money until you think of what a complete rebuild done right of an old dry sleeve engine will cost at your local dealership.  And if factor in fuel consumption the Cummins will pay its way nicely.

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Just now, Killer Red Mater said:

........ HOW DARE I have a different opinion.   Plus I hate powerstroke and the god almighty 7.3    I dont have a boat therefore I dont need an anchor .     Carry on .......... I dont care

You know, not every tractor has to have 500 hp. And the "sipping fuel" bullshit? The stock 282 is still one of the most fuel efficient engines ever built. What's the matter, you don't have enough patience to push the glow plug button before starting it? Everyone whines about an IH glow plug engine, but then brag about their stupid volkswagen, or kubota, or yanmar powered green compact tractor.

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Just curious while we are sort of on this topic. Has anybody ever swapped a Cummins into a 2+2 or heard of anybody doing it?

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46 minutes ago, Farmall Doctor said:

You know, not every tractor has to have 500 hp. And the "sipping fuel" bullshit? The stock 282 is still one of the most fuel efficient engines ever built. What's the matter, you don't have enough patience to push the glow plug button before starting it? Everyone whines about an IH glow plug engine, but then brag about their stupid volkswagen, or kubota, or yanmar powered green compact tractor.

Well my POS 706 you could hold the glow plug button till the cows come home but it wouldn’t be running to feed them 😂😂😂😂😂 I will take my 966 EVERYDAY over that other junk.  Best thing that happens to 706 tractors besides Cummins swap is cutting them up and turning them into pullers.  😂😂😂😂 then they are useful  otherwise cast is $230 a ton 

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Love it. I'm not even involved. 😂

 

I'd do a Cummins swap.  Think I can shoe horn a 4B into my 284?  If I thought I could and it wasn't overkill I would! Seriously looking at Kubota engines as a good alternative... just to be clear though, not to replace an IH motor, but the ultra rare Mazda gas they put in them.

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1 hour ago, Farmall Doctor said:

You mean like MY opinion that it's disgusting to repower an IH tractor?  You are the one acting offended here, bud. It's not your 706's fault that you couldn't fix the glow plugs. 

Just curious, have you ever made a living operating both IH powered and Cummins (or to be precise CDC) powered tractors?  

 

I have run them both, for decades.

 

My goal here is to farm for money, not with money.  If a Cummins repower doesn’t make sense in the grand scheme of things, I won’t do it.  I could just forget the IH thing and go newer with one of the legacy Maxxums, but there are some specific things about an IH tractor that may work better for me.  If I work with IH I would actually much prefer a 186 or 3488.

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Challenge I see here is the cost. A man could buy a couple 66's for less than an overhauled Cummins swap into an IH tractor. Run one feeding cows for 25 years and then the other for another 25 and now your past retirement age. As for fuel consumption, I check all the time, a 250 hp 66 does not burn hardly any fuel when not loading it. Check them when pulling them hard and have never burned more than five gph. I don't know where people get some of their numbers, but that's fine. In the end it is Gearclashes money and his tractor, he can do what he likes. My pencil tells me there is no way a cummins swap will pay if you have to go gather up all the stuff. Now if it is all in the corner of the shed, that is a different story. 

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21 minutes ago, INTERNATIONAL 1466 said:

Challenge I see here is the cost. A man could buy a couple 66's for less than an overhauled Cummins swap into an IH tractor. Run one feeding cows for 25 years and then the other for another 25 and now your past retirement age. As for fuel consumption, I check all the time, a 250 hp 66 does not burn hardly any fuel when not loading it. Check them when pulling them hard and have never burned more than five gph. I don't know where people get some of their numbers, but that's fine. In the end it is Gearclashes money and his tractor, he can do what he likes. My pencil tells me there is no way a cummins swap will pay if you have to go gather up all the stuff. Now if it is all in the corner of the shed, that is a different story. 

I think you are comparing a C series Cummins for your fuel numbers.  The 504 isn't a fuel miser in the least.... but the B series is.  Especially a 4 cyl, and especially with the VE pump.

I don't know where you are getting your cost numbers for overhaul either, because neither the B or C series are not that expensive to overhaul until you get into the electronic versions or have to buy a crankshaft.  I did an inframe on a 9330 earlier this year and it wasn't even $5k.  That included head work, injectors, new exhaust manifold and the inframe kit.  

With the exception of the IH 400 series, and maybe the 361/407 there isn't an easier engine to get parts for than a Cummins.  That alone is VERY appealing.  Actually at present, the 361/407 parts seem to be getting fewer and farther between on who has parts.

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5 hours ago, J-Mech said:

I don't know where you are getting your cost numbers for overhaul either, because neither the B or C series are not that expensive to overhaul until you get into the electronic versions or have to buy a crankshaft.

   Please explain how to do an inexpensive overhaul on a 4 or 6BT. Did you know that they don't have replaceable sleeves? 

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23 minutes ago, Farmall Doctor said:

Please explain how to do an inexpensive overhaul on a 4 or 6BT

I always quote them at 1000.00 a cylinder, excluding any major component replacement or machining. I have a 14000 hour, MX120 6BT block setting here waiting for a ride to machine shop for boring right now.  

B series, most of them have enough hours now that seems like everyone needs to be punched out to 1st oversize. If you do it right, you end up installing valve seats (none from factory) to get the valves setting where they should be. Even surfacing head doesn't get you back in spec.  

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I would venture a guess that I have been a part of repowering more of these tractors with Ed's setup than most people, somewhere around 12 to 15 units in the last couple years.  Not bragging or complaining, but have learned a thing or two about setting them up because we have seen a thing or two.. If the customer wants it and can pay for it, he is right.  Have had them walk down the row and say i want that one,, put a Cummins in it, a perfectly good running 1066.   (Realistically, doing that and then selling your good engine(in this area) is probably cheaper than buying one not running) The Allis shop around here does many Allis but thats a different ballgame.  I think most all of them have been for the Amish and not a single one has ever wished they had their IH motor back.  I really like the IH engine. Ive swapped 2 of my tractors out for 300 series engines because of all the things that are good about a 3/400 series over a German in my opinion.     These guys that want these tractors built want them for the longevity and fuel efficiency as well as the starting.    The guys that are running them on lighter use jobs, custom hay wrapping and the like, have cut their fuel use by a strong 1/3 and one guy saw his nearly cut in half from his 1066 or 86, I forget which one that was. These are all 6BT swaps with one 4BT swap in a 656.   A guy rented that one and asked us what it ran on because it didn't use any fuel enough to notice.  These tractors pretty much always get put on steel wheels, which would test the solid mounting theory.  It hasn't given any issues.      Based on the fuel savings alone, I think the payback (on those lighter use jobs, under full load) was 1000 hours.   Buy a good motor that isn't trashed and put it in.    Don't get stuck on having to rebuild it to put it in.     Most likely it will be fine for a long time.   Make certain the 4BT is a balanced version or you will have a headache from beating your head against a wall wondering why you were so stupid to do this swap.    I wish the designs for the 282 sunk with the Titanic and IH had to come up with a better idea.  Coming from a place that bought a 656D Hydro new and put 20 or 25,000 hours on it as the big tractor working ground until the 806 came and then many many hours on the feed wagon.  It doesn't matter how good your glow plugs are, the aggravating thing is that you always have to use them. There are always exceptions.   Ours would start decent but not comparable in any way to a Cummins.   If you get ambitious, hook the manifold heater up on the Cummins, if you don't see 10 or 20 degrees regularly, don't think that it is a must do. Its always a good idea to make it as easy on the motor to start as you can, but virtually none of these Amish conversion tractors get plugged in...because they don't have electricity.

There are enough parts to set it up as factory or as farmer-y as you want it.   The right manifold and you can bring the exhaust out the hood, Ed's plates make the bolting up easy and clean, Ed knows where to find the setup for running your IH mechanical tach, talk to him about it. There are a lot of the right IH parts that make this swap easy if you start with the right pieces.        Don't be certain that the job will be cheaper because you buy a cheap pickup motor.   If you just want it in and working, that will do it, but to make it nice you will have so much more time in swapping components that a motor out of a 96 series Case or Maxxum starts to look like a good idea. 

For the cost of rebuilding a 282 that should have machine work done to it, if it is getting done at a shop, a Cummins starts to price out close enough to be competitive to gain 20 some years of technology and parts commonality.

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I would use a 5.9, put one in a 706, made tractor out of it! I redrilled the 282 back plate and added a spacer between it and the block. The flywheel was reworked to put on the cummins crank. Didn't cost much at all.

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1 hour ago, Farmall Doctor said:

   Please explain how to do an inexpensive overhaul on a 4 or 6BT. Did you know that they don't have replaceable sleeves? 

Lmfao.  Did I know they don't have replaceable sleeves....?  Yeah "bud".  I'm not a farmer mechanic wannabe.  I've overhauled them.  CIH tech says $6k a hole and that sounds about right.  If you aren't paying someone, it's cheaper than that.  Which is what I was referring to since that is what most in this thread would be doing.  Not that you can't get money wrapped up in a 5.9, because you can.  Last one I did was out of a pickup, and the last series of 5.9.  Guy had around $10k in it by the time I was done, but he had ran it out of oil and ruined the crank.  Going of memory here but I think a new crank was $2500.

66 series tractors in my area are between $6k and $10k for average ones and go up from there.  I would rather own diesel than gas, but I'd rather own any gas than a 282 gp IH diesel.  

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Wow, anyone swapping out a 400 series for one of those rattle traps would make me scratch my head....................I don't like D282's or 301's either, but I sure as heck would choose something else over a rattle trap if I was doing all that work to repower something.............Parent bore and Heavy work do not go together IMO.

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2 minutes ago, TP from Central PA said:

Wow, anyone swapping out a 400 series for one of those rattle traps would make me scratch my head....................I don't like D282's or 301's either, but I sure as heck would choose something else over a rattle trap if I was doing all that work to repower something.............Parent bore and Heavy work do not go together IMO.

Well I dunno . . . the CDC version of the 5.9 holds up fine in the CIH MX170, at 145 pto hp.  In the pickups guys beat the snot of the 5.9 pulling campers all over the US, running up anywhere from half a million to a million miles.  I never hear of engine problems related to the parent bore design of the Ford engine (456/7.5)in the Genesis tractors--I’m sure a lot of those have been flogged unmercifully.  Same with the TM series where they used that same engine up to 190 engine hp.

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2 minutes ago, Gearclash said:

Well I dunno . . . the CDC version of the 5.9 holds up fine in the CIH MX170, at 145 pto hp.  In the pickups guys beat the snot of the 5.9 pulling campers all over the US, running up anywhere from half a million to a million miles.  I never hear of engine problems related to the parent bore design of the Ford engine (456/7.5)in the Genesis tractors--I’m sure a lot of those have been flogged unmercifully.  Same with the TM series where they used that same engine up to 190 engine hp.

That is great, until you bore and bore until your left with no bore................then it turns into $$$$$$$$$$$$$  

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Just now, TP from Central PA said:

That is great, until you bore and bore until your left with no bore................then it turns into $$$$$$$$$$$$$  

Thing is the bores hardly wear on those things.  We have been into just one of the 7 6B/Ts that my brother and I own, and that was an induced failure that had nothing to do with wear.  Most of the tractor 5.9s run anywhere from 15-25,000 hours before they need cylinder work.  

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17 hours ago, J-Mech said:

Love it. I'm not even involved. 😂

 

I'd do a Cummins swap.  Think I can shoe horn a 4B into my 284?  If I thought I could and it wasn't overkill I would! Seriously looking at Kubota engines as a good alternative... just to be clear though, not to replace an IH motor, but the ultra rare Mazda gas they put in them.

 

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