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4 cylinder Cummins into an IH tractor?


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Love it. I'm not even involved. 😂   I'd do a Cummins swap.  Think I can shoe horn a 4B into my 284?  If I thought I could and it wasn't overkill I would! Seriously looking at Kubota engines

But why?? The IH engines are much better than those sleeveless rattle trap cummins engines. 

I’m gonna start by saying I’ve never had the pleasure of owning a ih diesel we had 706 gas when I was a kid and I preferred it to other tractor s we had then because of how it drove straight on the ro

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Ed Leaman has adapter plates , flywheels and clutch for this available

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In a small frame tractor it is a nice swap.    If you are asking if anyone has done it into a big frame tractor, I'm guessing someone has, but I don't know why you would bother with a 4BT in that instead of the 6bt 5.9. As said Ed Leaman is the guy to talk to. 

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2 hours ago, Super A_sepa said:

In a small frame tractor it is a nice swap.    If you are asking if anyone has done it into a big frame tractor, I'm guessing someone has, but I don't know why you would bother with a 4BT in that instead of the 6bt 5.9. As said Ed Leaman is the guy to talk to. 

Mixer wagon tractor where the tractor needs to be heavy enough to handle the weight of the wagon but a 6 cylinder engine is never working hard.  I prefer the 6B over the 4B too but in this case a 4 cylinder would be a better choice.

2 hours ago, Farmall Doctor said:

But why?? The IH engines are much better than those sleeveless rattle trap cummins engines. 

My experience is that the Cummins B series is a lot longer lived than most of the IH stuff, and I’m looking for a more modern fuel system without the complicated tractor to go with it.

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Just now, Gearclash said:

My experience is that the Cummins B series is a lot longer lived than most of the IH stuff, and I’m looking for a more modern fuel system without the complicated tractor to go with it.

How modern do you want to go with a fuel system?? Common rail? Computer controlled? Before that, any cummins is the exact same as an IH engine.. Injection pump and injectors. 

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For that it does make some sense. The frame length will be an obstacle. But as I think about that it could be an interesting tractor. I'd probably choose a 756 (shorter height, just a little smaller package than 8 and up). Shoehorn the 4BT in, id shorten the frame rails so the radiator isn't like 18 inches away. (A narrow front would make this the easiest but not sure what you rather for your mixer) and in my head I'm picturing the stoutest (basically) 544 (since it will be a 4 cyl) ever made, dual pto, hyd brakes, can by hydro clutch.    Would certainly be a unique tractor!

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4 hours ago, acem said:

I think it would be a good replacement for a 706 gas tractor. Possibly even without the turbo. Thx-Ace 

I agree that a 7 size tractor would be a good size for a 4bt. But for the price of an engine and adapter kit you can buy a 5120 and have a fully synchronized transmission behind it.

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35 minutes ago, Jacka said:

Learned something new today, never messed with Cummins that only heard how great they are. I had no idea they were sleeveless. Is that all Cummins or just the smaller ones.

Elf ones..........4 and 6BT's.........Granted they seem to wear pretty well, must have decent metalurgy in the blocks.................Well, other than the POS ones cast overseas that cracked.

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Just now, TP from Central PA said:

Elf ones..........4 and 6BT's.........Granted they seem to wear pretty well, must have decent metalurgy in the blocks.................Well, other than the POS ones cast overseas that cracked.

That was the infamous 53 block cast in Brazil, supposedly missing a reinforcing gusset or some such thing internally.  In the timeframe that the 53 block engines were going into Dodge pickups, supposedly 1 in 8 blocks was a non 53 block, cast in Mexico, not having the flaw that led to cracking, and also of a slightly harder iron composition.

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5 minutes ago, Gearclash said:

That was the infamous 53 block cast in Brazil, supposedly missing a reinforcing gusset or some such thing internally.  In the timeframe that the 53 block engines were going into Dodge pickups, supposedly 1 in 8 blocks was a non 53 block, cast in Mexico, not having the flaw that led to cracking, and also of a slightly harder iron composition.

Yup................I can never remember the numbers, what is the best one?  51?  

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Amazing to me how closed minded some are .   However a buddy of mine put a 6BT in a 706 and now its an AWESOME tractor.  Sips fuel , runs smooth and way plenty of power .   Best thing that ever happened to that tractor.  Took out the crappy glowplug JUNK that didnt like to start even in the heat of summer to something that starts in the cold unplugged   Thats a win win especially if its a chore tractor you need daily to feed no matter what.   Your tractor so build what suits you and your need sir.

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8 minutes ago, Killer Red Mater said:

Amazing to me how closed minded some are .   However a buddy of mine put a 6BT in a 706 and now its an AWESOME tractor.  Sips fuel , runs smooth and way plenty of power .   Best thing that ever happened to that tractor.  Took out the crappy glowplug JUNK that didnt like to start even in the heat of summer to something that starts in the cold unplugged   Thats a win win especially if its a chore tractor you need daily to feed no matter what.   Your tractor so build what suits you and your need sir.

I am certainly not a D282 fan, but would use a IH 400 series engine before I would drop in a rattle trap, but that is just me.

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4 hours ago, TP from Central PA said:

Yup................I can never remember the numbers, what is the best one?  51?  

I never have heard which casting was the best . . . and not all had numbers.  I have a 5.9 in a Dodge of the 53 vintage, no casting number on so I assume it is Hecho in Mehico.

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3 hours ago, Killer Red Mater said:

Amazing to me how closed minded some are .   However a buddy of mine put a 6BT in a 706 and now its an AWESOME tractor.  Sips fuel , runs smooth and way plenty of power .   Best thing that ever happened to that tractor.  Took out the crappy glowplug JUNK that didnt like to start even in the heat of summer to something that starts in the cold unplugged   Thats a win win especially if its a chore tractor you need daily to feed no matter what.   Your tractor so build what suits you and your need sir.

Well, i guess i had better just plan on scrapping my 15,000 hour Farmall 706 D282 because it's just awful then. Seems silly, because it always starts, even though it's pretty well worn in at this point. The 656 Diesel will be sad too, because it spent it's life between '67 and '79 on hammer mill duty all winter and never needed a block heater because it never failed to start no matter how cold it got. 

It's funny how closed minded people are about IH products on this forum.. Bash any IH product all day long, but don't dare say anything negative about their dodge diesel pickup engine or a frickin' deere, or look out! 

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14 hours ago, Gearclash said:

That was the infamous 53 block cast in Brazil,

Seen too many of these "53" blocks in my time, successfully fixed a percentage of them with "Lock-N-Stitch" method. Some I just gave up on, we had one in the farms 6810 White, chased that crack with Lock-N-Stitch never did get it fixed. We have had a dealer contract with Cummins for years so just ordered a new block and moved everything from one block to another. 

As far as would I put a Cummins in place of an IH engine, yes I would based on your application. I installed one in a 656 well over 20 years ago. Just make sure it has a crank shaft balancer in it. 

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No matter what you choose to put in, everybody is fighting over "table scraps" at this point. We're going on 28 years since the last compatible 400 series IH engine was manufactured. We're going on 34 years since the last combine with a 400 series engine rolled off the assembly line. We're going on 36 years since the last tractor with a 400 series engine rolled off the assembly line. I think it's been 20+ years since the last 12-valve 6BT was made.

The supply has been pretty well picked over. Sure there are a few diamonds left out there but you have to be lucky or good to find them. Nearly all of what you find out there is just as tired and clapped out as what you have.

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22 hours ago, Farmall Doctor said:

How modern do you want to go with a fuel system?? Common rail? Computer controlled? Before that, any cummins is the exact same as an IH engine.. Injection pump and injectors. 

Bosch A or P pump.

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3 hours ago, Gearclash said:

Bosch A or P pump.

Best injection pump for cold starts ever was / is the Bosch VE. 1840 &45C loaders ran a CAV in early production, Bosch A in mid production and latest one had a Bosch VE. Over the years of working on them its hands down the best of the bunch. 

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1 hour ago, CIHTECH said:

Best injection pump for cold starts ever was / is the Bosch VE. 1840 &45C loaders ran a CAV in early production, Bosch A in mid production and latest one had a Bosch VE. Over the years of working on them its hands down the best of the bunch. 

Hmm.  I got no complaints about how my MX Maxxums with A pumps start.  If they struggle to light they should be plugged in anyway.  My brother's 5140 has a VE pump I believe and I don’t know that it is a much better cold starter than my A pumps.  I do think the A pumps run cleaner.

My neighbor has a Case W14B with a 5.9 and a CAV (I think), supposedly that pump is a knockoff/evolution of the RoosaMaster pumps, along with the Lucas pump on the CIH 5230 tractors.  Both miserable smoky mosquito abatement devices unless getting the snot run out of them.  My brother has a 5230 that we owned from nearly new, that pump was a POS from day 1.

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Has anyone have first hand experience with a 4BT in a 7xx or 8xx tractor?  I wonder if the “excessive” vibration of that motor is noticeable with these tractors?  I know the 4bt guys that swap these motors into 1/2 tons and stuff complain about that a lot. We had one in an 8820 swather and you could tell it was a bit of a vibrator, even with it mounted far in the back.  

But there is a lot more rigidity and mass in a tractor, so maybe not an issue?  I would be favouring the 6bt if it fits okay.  I cant see the 6bt being a issue running at lower horsepower levels.  Lots of the older tractors had massive engines compared to their hp; the 2090 case comes to mind.  
 

These 5.9’s in old dodges would have sat around idling a lot, driving in city traffic, etc.  They would have spent lots of time running part throttle and developing low hp.  Up here in the Canadian Prairies they had wet-stacking issues, but that was mostly from guys letting their trucks idle excessively in excessively cold weather. 

It’s funny how the 5.9 has become such a legend of longevity.  It’s really no more durable than any other good inline 6 diesel in my opinion.  Sure they can go 500,000+ in the odd dodge truck, but that’s really a low stress application.  Rarely is that engine producing 200+hp all day long in a 3/4 ton truck.
 

855 Cummins used to do 15000hrs in 400hp highway trucks, and were getting tired in 300hp Versatile’s by 5000 or 6000hrs.  I think longevity really comes down to the application.   

Our neighbour had a 5.9 in a mid-90’s Rogator sprayer.  I was 180hp and often in wet/soft field conditions.   That engine was fully, fully wore out in 4500hrs.  It got a major OH at that time.  But that poor engine would have worked its guts out pretty 100% of the time.  

Good 4bt’s also seem to cost way more that a 6bt, like also twice as much it seems.  I’m not set on IH vs Cummins, but I will take a six over a four-banger anytime I can.  A more modern six would make an already good IH tractor better in my opinion. 

 

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Another important point to make is that the IH engines were integral to the structure of the tractor. Is the cummins able to handle that? Case in point, when IH produced the 14/1568 units, the DV550 was not a structural rated block, hence the heavy cast side frames. The Maxxum series had no front engine mounts. The cummins was hung off of the bellhousing. And if they are made with a non-rigid front engine mount, how much twisting of the tractor front end will be experienced? Enough to throw fan alignment out and cause damage? Enough to twist and damage tinwork?  I don't know.

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