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They used to be religion and politics were taboo now we have another one


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22 minutes ago, jeeper61 said:

I am going to go there if I am sick? No I wouldn't do that pre COVID

I am I getting another test before I go? No they are fine with that.

I'm glad you see your folks and I'd love to hear some of your dad's early jet age stories.

I'm up to 6 tests and many of our guys have more. It's hard to understand how a sterile swab can give a sinus infection but perhaps the bacteria was waiting to be disturbed. I do like the rapid test as they don't go up and take a left!

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The news a couple of weeks ago said it would only last three months. Then last week they said it may last 3 years. If they don't know how long it will last then how do they know what the side effects might be. I'm not against a vaccination that has been proven. Unfortunately this one has not and doesn't even sound like they're sure it actually does anything. 

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2 hours ago, jeeper61 said:

If the teachers then don't want to return to work they are then terminated and replaced.

 

First - I don’t think you and I are that far apart on what we think of the situation we’re in.

Reference the quoted part - terminating teachers in the area I live in would take courage on the part of local politicians that I don’t believe they have.

My position is I just don’t see a smooth transition to normal because the vaccine is available and I don’t accept the idea of a ‘new normal’. I hope i’m wrong....

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1 hour ago, New Englander said:

I'm glad you see your folks and I'd love to hear some of your dad's early jet age stories.

 

I got solid day of those stories at my visit in November.

He pulled all the books out went through all the photo's and when different type aircraft were grounded because of crashes etc. and all the antics they did.

The Air Force hadn't cracked down on the fly overs etc. until the late Fifties they buzzed all the girlfriend/family houses etc. before that.

He knows who is still around and who is gone there are few Web Sites/Facebook groups for retired squadron members.

  

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1 hour ago, 1466fan said:

I'm not against a vaccination that has been proven. Unfortunately this one has not and doesn't even sound like they're sure it actually does anything. 

l agree 100%. l'm not going to take a vaccine for something they claim has been around only since February. And l'm definately not taking a vaccine that could have worse side effects than the virus itself.

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I wouldn't give an unproven vaccine to my cows.   Or my dog. Or my cat. Why would I want my wife and kids to. Bet slot of these folks that have been driven to panic wouldn't want fido to get a shot not knowing what the side effects could be. If somebody wants to get it that's their business. Just like not getting it is mine. 

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5 hours ago, New Englander said:

Most of us do everyday tasks in a way that mitigates risk without too much thought. We don't put our hands in moving machinery. We leave space in front of us in traffic to stop, etc, etc. In the same way I get the most reliable information regarding my health. I apply the same principles I use before every flight. Before every flight I spend a lot of time gathering information of the risks involved and the best way to mitigate them. Sometimes there's just no way to get an acceptable risk and the flight is delayed or cancelled, a call I don't make lightly but one I have to do.

New Englander, Your the type of pilot I want sitting in the #1 seat when I fly. ?

 

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Landlord's daughter was one of the team that developed one of the first covid tests and has been working in junction with a team on developing a vaccine for it . She has has recommended her dad, who is in his 70s, take  it when it becomes available.

I'm not worried about getting covid, only wear a mask where its mandatory. I'm considered high risk, age, diabetic, high BP, have had pneumonia twice and will take it when it becomes available. Have taken the flu vaccine for close to 20 years with no side affects. Missed taking it one year & got the flu. Coincidence, maybe, maybe not.

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1 hour ago, 1466fan said:

I wouldn't give an unproven vaccine to my cows.   Or my dog. Or my cat. Why would I want my wife and kids to. Bet slot of these folks that have been driven to panic wouldn't want fido to get a shot not knowing what the side effects could be. If somebody wants to get it that's their business. Just like not getting it is mine. 

Side effects have been widely published, about the same for just about every immunization.

So far proven to be 94-95% effective.

I think everyone should get accurate information and then make a decision. You've made yours but don't close the door without continuing to evaluate. 

Some sources:

https://www.wsj.com/articles/pfizer-covid-19-vaccine-fda-review-11605715625

https://www.wsj.com/articles/fda-set-to-release-analyses-of-the-pfizer-biontech-covid-19-vaccine-11607423403

How could it be developed so quickly? Work being done for decades with tons of money thrown at it to get the testing done quickly, the tough part without adequate funding:

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-03626-1

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1 minute ago, mader656 said:

Someone explain if getting the virus does not produce immunity how the world can a vaccine? 

It's a unknown at this point if infection and recovery give a long term immunity or if the body soon forgets as it does with some viral infections but not others. Vaccinations typically evoke a strong immune response; It'll take time to find if a booster shot is needed like some immunizations. So far what I've read is that none of the 44,000 in the Pfizer final test group have lost immunity and they'll be followed for at least two years.

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4 hours ago, New Englander said:

It doesn't seem to make sense that we could even know that the effects of the vaccines are only temporary. The tens of thousands of test subjects are still being followed to verify the 94-95% effectiveness so we'd have to see that some have since become infected, which hasn't happened.

I could not find any statement on the FDA, or anyone's website that states the vaccines are only temporary. Perhaps you could steer me in the correct direction. There's simply no information that you could trust or not trust.

All the information I could find on flu shot effective time states 6 months, or about the average length of the flu season and all state to get it early.

No offense to you or your family but it seems your "common sense" statements on the length of the effectiveness of both the flu shot or the COVID-19 can not be collaborated, at least nothing I can find. Since I'm always curious please point where you found the information.

My niece is a nurse in a senior center where they lost a huge number of their patients and she herself contracted COVID-19. I have not heard her schedule for vaccination but I'm quite sure she doesn't harbor irrational fear of it, especially after having her butt kicked by it and the so far unknown length of immunity one naturally gets from having had the disease and recovered.

I did find this on the CDC that states what one should look for in evaluating information:

https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/evalwebs.htm

90+ % effectiveness in what? guaranteeing you will experience side effects from the first shot and even worse side effects from shot number 2?  

I will add this for you to ponder...............if virus vaccines had an infinite antibody lifespan, why would we need to vaccinate our dogs/cattle/horses/swine all the time. Why would our bodies get even the same virus all over again? 

my summation based on the CDC study below " using a conservative average of 50 percent coverage from the get go from virus vaccines in 30 days you are at 43%, 36% at 60days, then 29% at 90 - the numbers are averages so while you might be at 35% after 90 days you very well likely are more like 20% due to antibodies dying off faster as they age. Just like a bullet drops more over longer distances. This info regarding antibodies dying off quicker with age of the antibody and a healthy body to maintain it. Again this is easily found from CDC studies."  

What I also find interesting is how our own Govt. comes up with their so called COVID success numbers on a totally NEW process that has not been through the rigorous YEARS/DECADEs of creation, strains, testing, and results and then publish the Study info below and expect people to believe Covid numbers are real and accurate ? Sorry but it all smells off to me. 

My nephew has lost his entire wing at the VA he was responsible to either the FLU or COVID. Some of them have died, 43 were all moved to hospitals or specialty care not provided there. He is an RN. He had the Covid 19 virus and even with all the death he has seen he refuses to get the vaccine. 

directly from the beloved CDC below - 

The CDC study, which looked at data from four flu seasons, showed a more consistent pattern. Protection against all the two influenza A families and influenza B viruses all declined steadily in the months after vaccination, at a rate of about 7 percent per month. (The decline was a bit steeper for protection against H3N2 viruses.) That might seem small, but people aren’t starting from 100 percent protection. On average, flu vaccine is estimated to cut the risk of flu by about 50 percent or 60 percent — and some years, the protection is less than that, when the strains in the vaccine aren’t well-matched to those making people sick.

 

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3 hours ago, ihrondiesel said:

No point in getting the vaccine if ivermectin is that cheap and effective. 

That is what big pharma and the wealthy that back them are scared of. Therapeutics that work, are cheap and plentiful and well tested = no trillions for them.

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2 hours ago, searcyfarms said:

90+ % effectiveness in what? guaranteeing you will experience side effects from the first shot and even worse side effects from shot number 2?  

I will add this for you to ponder...............if virus vaccines had an infinite antibody lifespan, why would we need to vaccinate our dogs/cattle/horses/swine all the time. Why would our bodies get even the same virus all over again? 

Wow, where to start?

Most injections of any type will cause minor pain at the injection site. My experience with the seasonal flu shot is very minor but some of the shots like yellow fever and even the shingles shot have been slightly more uncomfortable. These minor discomforts are the most commonly reported side effects from the 44,0000 test subjects. I've been to the immunologist multiple times over the years. The questions always the same. "Where are you going? In the cities or out in the bush?" The administered shots come with the same comments: "This isn't too bad at all" or "this one may keep you down for a day". Always been accurate.

Vaccination duration is all over the place. Polio, for instance is good for 99% of the people for at least 18 years. I've had a booster for the third world countries I've visited. Measles is life long for 96%; Mumps, 90% for at least 10 years then slowly fading; Pneumonia, at least 5 years, etc, etc.

The seasonal flu varies in % protected but lasts about 6 months, fading. The mRNA technology promises a much better outcome. In fact, it's the work and study for it and other diseases over the past few decades that led to the breakthrough on COVID-19. We won't know the efficacy time for the Pfizer or others until some time passes, the same for all other vaccines but they all started somewhere. I took the first batch of Polio shots in grade school. No one knew how long they'd be good for then either but they did know they worked right away, just as the 44,000 have proven with Pfizer. Remember that: NO ONE KNEW HOW LONG THE POLIO SHOT WOULD WORK BUT THEY KNEW THAT IT WORKED RIGHT AWAY. I don't know how old you are but for those my age who were paralyzed or spent time in an iron lung it was a miracle.

The constant repetition that this vaccine has been rushed and unproven disregards that the 3 phase studies that normally are run consecutively were run concurrently and that the usual animal studies were also run. It also ignores that technology is advancing in leaps and bounds. Old school vaccines took forever to grow virus slowly in individual eggs. New technology enables vast quantities in laboratories and to do likewise with the actual vaccine. The technology used creating the first Polio shot and that used for mRNA is like comparing a typewriter to a super computer.

Those who think the disease is a hoax should only need to look at VA losses or the rows of morgue trailers that were outside NYC hospitals.

You've made up your mind but I hope you make an effort to keep it open and find good reliable and authoritative information on which to base your  decisions.

 

 

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9 hours ago, New Englander said:

 I'd love to hear some of your dad's early jet age stories.

This is what he has told me about his time in the Air Force at my last visit.

Dad started with 84th FIS at Hamilton Air Force Base the ADC base for San Francisco and the Bay Area.

When he arrived in 1950 they still had a flight of P-51s active his flight was equipped with F-84s 

In 1951 they received F-89s and F-94s replacing all the P-51s and F-84s

 In 1960 they received F-101s and in late 1967 received F-106s.

Dad had an electrical engineering degree, and his flights primary function was validation of the rapidly changing electronic targeting and fire control system for the early air to air missiles being developed by Hughes.

Being in the Bay Area of course there were fly under the bridges and buzz the navy ships incidents.

Then the stories of the commanders who were WW2 combat vets they were always taking the P-51s to visit family one of them crashed on take off from a small grass field in Texas and that put a stop to that practice.

They did a lot of testing with towed targets as the used in those days and there were a few shot down the tow plane accidents and there was Navy sub search plane shot down it was way off the reported flight path and not reachable.

I was surprised at the number of crews the lost in just operational accidents with they had flights up pretty much 24/7 with F-84s F-89s and F-94s they did not have the range or speed to effectively scramble and intercept high altitude bombers it was not until F-101s and F-106s they had the speed and range.

The F-89s were grounded for some flutter in the elevator that caused the tail to break off.

F-94s were grounded for air frame failure issue which caused the wings to fall off.

The early jet fighters showed a lot of design flaws that were not found until crashes some pilots did not have the nerve to keep flying with the crashes and did any thing they could to get out of the fighters

In 1970 Dad retired from flying and went on to validate ADC radar systems being installed at various sites around the world.

When he retired from the Air Force he went to work for Raytheon on the deployment of the Patriot Missile system retiring from Raytheon in 1995.

84 Fighter Sq emblem.png

84th Emblem I have an actual from one of his flight suits 

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Duck covid, duck vaccines, let’s talk aeroplanes.

when I was growing up the old man always was saying he wished he had stayed in school (grade 6) but not knowing another war was coming he did what he did, but when joining the army and finding the Air Force needed maybe high school or better and the better conditions he regretted that fact.

the prop jobs I loved p38 and the p51, the Flying Fortress of course and the spitfire, I made models of them all.

then the jets came about in model ville and my favorite was the f 86, the open mouth fuselage was what I liked, the only other jet from that era was the t 33, it was used for a long time by the kanadian guys.

and of course our biggest mistake, the  avro arrow, I was ten years old and still  shooting blanks and I was pissed because the old man was so pissed. 

I also got started  on WW1 planes, biplanes and triplanes, a few models involved there, I always wanted to be a little Fokker who got to see a real Fokker.

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1 hour ago, New Englander said:

Wow, where to start?

Most injections of any type will cause minor pain at the injection site. My experience with the seasonal flu shot is very minor but some of the shots like yellow fever and even the shingles shot have been slightly more uncomfortable. These minor discomforts are the most commonly reported side effects from the 44,0000 test subjects. I've been to the immunologist multiple times over the years. The questions always the same. "Where are you going? In the cities or out in the bush?" The administered shots come with the same comments: "This isn't too bad at all" or "this one may keep you down for a day". Always been accurate.

Vaccination duration is all over the place. Polio, for instance is good for 99% of the people for at least 18 years. I've had a booster for the third world countries I've visited. Measles is life long for 96%; Mumps, 90% for at least 10 years then slowly fading; Pneumonia, at least 5 years, etc, etc.

The seasonal flu varies in % protected but lasts about 6 months, fading. The mRNA technology promises a much better outcome. In fact, it's the work and study for it and other diseases over the past few decades that led to the breakthrough on COVID-19. We won't know the efficacy time for the Pfizer or others until some time passes, the same for all other vaccines but they all started somewhere. I took the first batch of Polio shots in grade school. No one knew how long they'd be good for then either but they did know they worked right away, just as the 44,000 have proven with Pfizer. Remember that: NO ONE KNEW HOW LONG THE POLIO SHOT WOULD WORK BUT THEY KNEW THAT IT WORKED RIGHT AWAY. I don't know how old you are but for those my age who were paralyzed or spent time in an iron lung it was a miracle.

The constant repetition that this vaccine has been rushed and unproven disregards that the 3 phase studies that normally are run consecutively were run concurrently and that the usual animal studies were also run. It also ignores that technology is advancing in leaps and bounds. Old school vaccines took forever to grow virus slowly in individual eggs. New technology enables vast quantities in laboratories and to do likewise with the actual vaccine. The technology used creating the first Polio shot and that used for mRNA is like comparing a typewriter to a super computer.

Those who think the disease is a hoax should only need to look at VA losses or the rows of morgue trailers that were outside NYC hospitals.

You've made up your mind but I hope you make an effort to keep it open and find good reliable and authoritative information on which to base your  decisions.

 

 

ive made up my mind out of personal concern and undeniable facts from CDC and our own Govt.  You have made up your mind also and fair is fair, I will drink my kool aid while you enjoy yours. 

I believe the effort I have made to find out reasonable information is accurate and substantial enough for me to make a good decision. 

Even the scientists that made the vaccine from Pfizer said their vaccine wont stop the virus it will just slow it down and it will take entire 2021 to make a dent in it. One scientist compared the vaccine effect like a dimmer switch, IF we are lucky we might see it get brighter and brighter if they obtain 70 to 75% compliance with the vaccine by years end. I do not see that happening and I dont believe their math. 

Oh I can assure you I believe in the virus from affected family members one of which is currently on a bipap trying to keep him off a ventilator. 

 

 

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7 minutes ago, Dasnake said:

Duck covid, duck vaccines, let’s talk aeroplanes.

when I was growing up the old man always was saying he wished he had stayed in school (grade 6) but not knowing another war was coming he did what he did, but when joining the army and finding the Air Force needed maybe high school or better and the better conditions he regretted that fact.

the prop jobs I loved p38 and the p51, the Flying Fortress of course and the spitfire, I made models of them all.

then the jets came about in model ville and my favorite was the f 86, the open mouth fuselage was what I liked, the only other jet from that era was the t 33, it was used for a long time by the kanadian guys.

and of course our biggest mistake, the  avro arrow, I was ten years old and still  shooting blanks and I was pissed because the old man was so pissed. 

I also got started  on WW1 planes, biplanes and triplanes, a few models involved there, I always wanted to be a little Fokker who got to see a real Fokker.

is that a cross between a falcon and a hawker ?

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2 hours ago, jeeper61 said:

This is what he has told me about his time in the Air Force at my last visit.

Dad started with 84th FIS at Hamilton Air Force Base the ADC base for San Francisco and the Bay Area.

When he arrived in 1950 they still had a flight of P-51s active his flight was equipped with F-84s 

In 1951 they received F-89s and F-94s replacing all the P-51s and F-84s

 In 1960 they received F-101s and in late 1967 received F-106s.

Dad had an electrical engineering degree, and his flights primary function was validation of the rapidly changing electronic targeting and fire control system for the early air to air missiles being developed by Hughes.

Being in the Bay Area of course there were fly under the bridges and buzz the navy ships incidents.

Then the stories of the commanders who were WW2 combat vets they were always taking the P-51s to visit family one of them crashed on take off from a small grass field in Texas and that put a stop to that practice.

They did a lot of testing with towed targets as the used in those days and there were a few shot down the tow plane accidents and there was Navy sub search plane shot down it was way off the reported flight path and not reachable.

I was surprised at the number of crews the lost in just operational accidents with they had flights up pretty much 24/7 with F-84s F-89s and F-94s they did not have the range or speed to effectively scramble and intercept high altitude bombers it was not until F-101s and F-106s they had the speed and range.

The F-89s were grounded for some flutter in the elevator that caused the tail to break off.

F-94s were grounded for air frame failure issue which caused the wings to fall off.

The early jet fighters showed a lot of design flaws that were not found until crashes some pilots did not have the nerve to keep flying with the crashes and did any thing they could to get out of the fighters

In 1970 Dad retired from flying and went on to validate ADC radar systems being installed at various sites around the world.

When he retired from the Air Force he went to work for Raytheon on the deployment of the Patriot Missile system retiring from Raytheon in 1995.

84 Fighter Sq emblem.png

84th Emblem I have an actual from one of his flight suits 

Dad was in the 318th FIS in Thule, Greenland during the Korean War, but he wasn't a flyer.  He took quite a few pictures - thought you might like to see a few (I threw in one for the Navy guys, too).

Of course they didn't see combat, but he said they carried a guy or two out in a straight jacket due to those long polar nights and days.

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Had to share this because it has so been on my heart. We are so far past time to get some perspective.

 

Copied and shared.. 

Wife is from Canada. We have not been able to get up to see family since Feb. This does tend to bring things into a better focus IMHO.

 

142 people died of covid in Canada yesterday.. Sounds alarming right... I think that's the goal to alarm us... It is alarming...... but it got me thinking what if they threw all kinds of numbers at us everyday ... would covid still be the most popular on social media ....... perhaps...

MAYBE if we heard comparison numbers we would feel different... maybe...

 

But' let's grieve all the numbers, and be fair about it ♡ 

 

Covid Dec 11th 2020: 142 deaths yesterday... ? 

 

-4157suicides last year- averaging 11 per day ? I never knew this number... mental health receives such little attention (the leading cause of death in our young people, the same young people we have socially restricted... Who's  fighting for them ... ? )

 

-over 80,000 people died of cancer last year in Canada... that's about 220 a day... ? I didn't know that.... someone's mother, father, daughter, son ? absolutely tragic ....

 

-I couldn't find how many people died of the flu, because from what I gather, flu isn't usually marked as cause of death... but if someone has the number, let's have a moment of silence for those lives... ? 

 

-276,689 died of heart disease that's more than 750 a day...WOW...if I heard that every day, I would probably eat more veggies and less deep fried goodness... this number is OUTRAGEOUS... and why aren’t we banning and boycotting places like MacDonalds, or outlawing cigarettes? 

 

- 1500 killed and over 63,000 injured by drunk drivers each year in Canada... that means 5 die a day and many more injured  ..and we still sell alcohol... tell me again how much the government is concerned about your life ? 

 

- 6912 died from Alzheimer's ...that's 18 a day 

 

-41,500 from diabetes...that's 113 a day.... and sugar is the #1 ingredient in our market place and yet no one is bombarding is with the health stats about sugar and its risks to your health 

 

- about 57,000 a year die of stroke... about 156 each day 

 

-almost 2 million jobs were lost in April from covid, and it appears over half of those are still unemployed, that would work out to an average of 5479 a day... that's a huge impact on the economy and a lot of mouths to feed...especially when our prime minister hikes up the carbon tax 467%.....

 

-5.6 million children die each year from hunger...that's 15,000 a day, approx 4 a minute... and we close our eyes and ignore. 

 

-206,905 died over the age of 70 in Canada last year... that is a whooping 564 people each day ... WOW... 

 

And to top it off...if you look at the deaths over the past 5 years in Canada , they all average about the same....in fact this fall has the least deaths over the past 5 years..... so tell me again how Covid is threatening to overwhelm us?

 

Media is a powerful player...we can't dismiss that perhaps a major bias is being spoon fed to us through their garbage propaganda.... ? yeah I said garbage, because that's exactly what it is...

 

My point is...we aren't bombarded with these numbers every day.....and if we were, we would all be shocked...

 

 I didn't realize 500 elderly died each day... that is so sad...someone loved them.... ♡ and they matter too...

and currently those 500 a day  are locked away, think about that.... Every patriotic covid supporter...they are locking up our grandparents...our parents... That is abusive... absolutely abusive,  in every sense of the word...

 

Ask grandma is she would like to see her kids, her grandkids... I will guarantee her answer will, statistically,  be a resounding 'YES', with tears running down her face...Shame on our system ... You can't tell me this is ok...

 

So the argument that covid is contagious, is valid.. with a transmission rate of 1%, that means, if I sat with 100 people, 1 is probable to catch it, sure that's too many... but 99% will recover... so when you put it like that... how does shutting down the world make any sense? 

 

The numbers posted above, get dismissed every single day...... and covid is controlling our every move... Controlling what we say... Controlling how close we stand to loved ones... Controlling who we see...

 

Who gave covid so much power... oh right the politicians...  Who love us like we were their children? 

 

You eat an apple that is sprayed, you fly in planes...you drive cars... you walk across the street, you eat peanuts out of the local pubs infested bowl... you get a little water from the river in your mouth and keep swimming...

 

We take risks everyday... I would rather die of covid surrounded by my family, than live isolated and alone ...

 

Statistically speaking you are 12x more likely to be murdered in the city of Calgary, than to be killed by this virus if you are under the age of 60....

 

More likely that you would be struck dead by lightening, than die under the age of 20... 

 

Tell me again how this warrants a global shutdown? 

 

Tell me again that something bigger isn’t driving this nonsense. 

 

 EVERY life...EVERY LIFE matters... 

BUT we aren't concerned with all the toxic garbage on the supermarket shelves, which by the way is the #1 cause of  heart disease & cancer.... 

 

When the government stops selling cigarettes, the leading cause of cancer, sugary cereals and Cheetos, #1 cause of child obesity ...and MSG and Aspartame, that poison people, and all the dyes and preservatives our government approves for human consumption ... then we can talk about how they care about our health & well being ... ♡  

 

Until then, I would rather be with my friends and family at Christmas and take my chances with covid.....

 

I would also like to be free to work, earn a living, and move about the world the way I could have 9 short months ago. 

 

This may be the biggest crime against humanity the world has ever seen.

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7 hours ago, jeeper61 said:

This is what he has told me about his time in the Air Force at my last visit.

Thanks for that.

I've had the pleasure of flying with some of those guy who went on to have civilian careers; all long retired now. I've flown with more Vietnam vets, guys who flew F105s, F4s, A4s and A6s and spent lots of hours with Marine Huey pilot, a well decorated one - 49 Air Medals, Two DFCs, Purple Heart, and more. He was my Chief Pilot for some time and then a line pilot at another job along side me.

I was just reading a story concerning Jimmy Stewart's stepsons death and in the middle of it he appeared as a 1st LT. I thought "hey I've heard this story from the other side!".

I hope you get more stories from your dad. Next time bring a recorder and get it archived for your kids and their kids. I wish that I had recorded my mom's stories of growing up in the depression and going on to get through WWII. It would have been nice to pass on.

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13 minutes ago, New Englander said:I wish that I had recorded my mom's stories of growing up in the depression and going on to get through WWII. It would have been nice to pass on.

Our family has my maternal grandmother’s diaries from early 1943 until her death in 1966. One of my cousins transcribed them into ‘Word’ documents over the period of several years and distributed them throughout the extended family. Fascinating family history as well as a look into world events especially WWII as experienced as a farm wife.

And this is an extreme example of a topic getting derailed!!!!

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12 minutes ago, Dave Downs said:

And this is an extreme example of a topic getting derailed!!!!

Those diaries must be a treasure!

Yes derailed but talked out. Some have made decisions one way or another based on what they want to believe, or facts, or a combination. I just hope people make the effort to get facts and not rely on what Clem said down at the service station?

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