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Finally decided to start a thread on this board. As some of you know, I'm restoring a 1949 McCormick WD-9. I bought it as a tractor which shouldn't have needed all too much work.

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Tractor ran good, but not perfect. It sounded like a bad valve. I decided to take the head off, to see if my thoughts were correct. Head was good, all 4 intake valves were worn out. But I also saw the sleeves were badly damaged. Took the oil pan off and the pistons out. All 4 pistons were broken. That was a big, unwelcome, surprise.

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Parts are hard to get, especially as I'm located in Europe. I realised new pistons and sleeves wouldn't be worth it. So I took the gamble and got myself a unstuck parts block. It arrived last week. Took the head off and it looks promising. At least 3 of the pistons and sleeves look good. Will get into that later.

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While I had to wait for the engine, I took apart the complete steering system. Replaced all bushings and seals and its super tight now. The steering house is also the transmission cover, so I also had the possibility to look inside, not expecting too much trouble. But, you probably guessed it by now, almost every bearing is worn out. So I have to take the transmission apart as well. I have taken the upper shaft out, and that's where I am at now. I also have a question: how do I take out the lower shaft? I don't think it can go out via either hole in the transmission, so I reckon the shaft can be split somehow. I don't find the parts book very clear. Can anyone give his/her advice?

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Finally decided to start a thread on this board. As some of you know, I'm restoring a 1949 McCormick WD-9. I bought it as a tractor which shouldn't have needed all too much work. Tractor r

Time for a small update. Haven't been able to do too much because I had school exams over the last month. Got some small things done like putting the transmission cover back on and reconnect the

Next step is to replace all seals and bearing and put everything back in

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Your piston picture is a classic example of what happens when new rings are installed on old pistons. There is a thread on this forum. On the general IH board titled TD-6 engine overhaul questions. Dated November 28. I urge you to look at this and see what I and several others had to say on the subject. It will be apparent we are not in agreement on the topic. No need to start over. Just read and make your own decisions.

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when i saw these pistons i said aahaa this engine was started with starting fluid instead of the gas start. i have seen quite a few pistons like that from starting fluid.  i will stick with my view. maybe that is the original rings how do we know it had only rings put in it? but anyhow thats a good unit to restore.

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Been hoping someone would jump in and tell you how to remove that shaft. No it does not split. It comes out the top. Remove pto if equiped. Remove brg retainers front and rear. I believe shaft moves back and you have to remove rear bearing. Then lift front of shaft and remove. I believe that to be general proceedure but am unsure of details

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13 hours ago, snoshoe said:

Your piston picture is a classic example of what happens when new rings are installed on old pistons. There is a thread on this forum. On the general IH board titled TD-6 engine overhaul questions. Dated November 28. I urge you to look at this and see what I and several others had to say on the subject. It will be apparent we are not in agreement on the topic. No need to start over. Just read and make your own decisions.

I get what you mean, I've read that topic already, and from a technical standpoint, it would be best to get new pistons, but I will only run it 20 or 30 hours a year and it won't be working hard, so I don't feel like it is worth it to get new pistons and I don't think it will cause issues. I hope you understand. 

Isn't is possible that the pistons broke because the engine got too hot?

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9 hours ago, snoshoe said:

Been hoping someone would jump in and tell you how to remove that shaft. No it does not split. It comes out the top. Remove pto if equiped. Remove brg retainers front and rear. I believe shaft moves back and you have to remove rear bearing. Then lift front of shaft and remove. I believe that to be general proceedure but am unsure of details

From what I can tell, the rear bearing doesn't have a retainer. Looks like it is in the cast material. That's why I thought the lower shaft can be split

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3 hours ago, Farmall 1466 said:

From what I can tell, the rear bearing doesn't have a retainer. Looks like it is in the cast material. That's why I thought the lower shaft can be split

My thoughts were the shaft was positioned by the front bearing and the rear was in a straight bore. I may be very wrong. Is why I was hoping for more help.

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2 hours ago, snoshoe said:

My thoughts were the shaft was positioned by the front bearing and the rear was in a straight bore. I may be very wrong. Is why I was hoping for more help.

I will take a look tomorrow and make some more pictures. I really appreciate your input.

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6 hours ago, Farmall 1466 said:

I get what you mean, I've read that topic already, and from a technical standpoint, it would be best to get new pistons, but I will only run it 20 or 30 hours a year and it won't be working hard, so I don't feel like it is worth it to get new pistons and I don't think it will cause issues. I hope you understand. 

Isn't is possible that the pistons broke because the engine got too hot?

It's your tractor, your money, and your time.  You can spend all 3 however you like.  Just know that the pistons you took out is what happens when you put new rings on old wore out pistons.  As snoshoe pointed out, you can just see the second ring beginning to seal up.  Good evidence that they haven't been in there very long.  If you want to put used pistons and liners back in, that is on you.... but in a year or so you might wonder what that noise is, or it may just seize up one day.  

No, the pistons did not overheat.  They show no evidence of overheating in your picture.  

 

 

As far as the transmission, I don't know.  Never been into one.  Looks like you take the reverse idler out then push the shaft "up" in the picture.  Then remove the bearing on the "top" end, then remove the shaft.  

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remove idler, remove front brg. retainer and then remove the hut and washer. then screw the nut back on smack shaft rear ward till both brgs re out of the bores. slide the shaft rearward and remove the gears , and shaft out the back. 

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and as for the pistons its not a heat problem . when over heated the skirts will be scuffed. you are not showing the complete piston . and as for the other used pistons you must check the ring land wear on them. yes i agree when they are worn the pistons are junk, but that dont mean till you actually check them with a feeler gauge with the new rings. i know you dont want to spend money . if your within these spec's it will run good for the amount you use these old things. the land clearance is  top ring.029 max., second and third ring .0035 max. oil rings .004 max. the end gap is .029 max.  you want .003.-.004 for every inch of bore. the skirt clearance is .0085 max. then there is the piston pins to check also.  i put these old engines together and work them in the field so thats about as good as it gets. just DO NOT USE starting fluid on them. then u will have problems like that. this is one of the best ideas to start a gas engine that ihc had. and they will last a long time if looked after. the engine gets warmed up before it gets switched to diesel. 

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43 minutes ago, J-Mech said:

It's your tractor, your money, and your time.  You can spend all 3 however you like.  Just know that the pistons you took out is what happens when you put new rings on old wore out pistons.  As snoshoe pointed out, you can just see the second ring beginning to seal up.  Good evidence that they haven't been in there very long.  If you want to put used pistons and liners back in, that is on you.... but in a year or so you might wonder what that noise is, or it may just seize up one day.  

No, the pistons did not overheat.  They show no evidence of overheating in your picture.  

 

 

As far as the transmission, I don't know.  Never been into one.  Looks like you take the reverse idler out then push the shaft "up" in the picture.  Then remove the bearing on the "top" end, then remove the shaft.  

I know, to do it right, I need new pistons and sleeves. I will measure the tolerances with the dimensions @rustred gave. We have a F-20 too, its partly visible in one of the pictures and we used the old pistons and sleeves on that again and got new rings (they are custom made tho to fit the old pistons, don't know if that makes things better?), because there just isn't new stuff available for it. It has been 10 years since the restoration and has been running great ever since

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11 minutes ago, rustred said:

and as for the pistons its not a heat problem . when over heated the skirts will be scuffed. you are not showing the complete piston . and as for the other used pistons you must check the ring land wear on them. yes i agree when they are worn the pistons are junk, but that dont mean till you actually check them with a feeler gauge with the new rings. i know you dont want to spend money . if your within these spec's it will run good for the amount you use these old things. the land clearance is  top ring.029 max., second and third ring .0035 max. oil rings .004 max. the end gap is .029 max.  you want .003.-.004 for every inch of bore. the skirt clearance is .0085 max. then there is the piston pins to check also.  i put these old engines together and work them in the field so thats about as good as it gets. just DO NOT USE starting fluid on them. then u will have problems like that. this is one of the best ideas to start a gas engine that ihc had. and they will last a long time if looked after. the engine gets warmed up before it gets switched to diesel. 

I will check the tolerances. Thanks! And its not really about not wanting to spend money, but why would I if it won't run that much better?

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1 hour ago, Farmall 1466 said:

I will check the tolerances. Thanks! And its not really about not wanting to spend money, but why would I if it won't run that much better?

Because you don't want to have to go back into it to fix what should have been the first go-round.  You can't really think a tight engine won't run better...

1 hour ago, Farmall 1466 said:

and got new rings (they are custom made tho to fit the old pistons, don't know if that makes things better?)

I've never had that done, but from a wear standpoint it would.  The ring not properly fitting is what causes issues.  If a ring was made to fit, it would certainly help.  I would re-machine the ring grooves though so that they are uniform, then have a ring custom made to fit it.  Then you have the skirt clearance to address.  If the piston also has too much play that will affect the rings, and could cause odd wear or score a cylinder, or just be noisy.  On a "parade tractor" it's not terribly critical, but no reason to not do the best you can while you're in it.  Depending on the wear, using old rings wore to the piston is better than new rings that have improper fit.  Tough call to make from a computer screen. 

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3 hours ago, Farmall 1466 said:

I will check the tolerances. Thanks! And its not really about not wanting to spend money, but why would I if it won't run that much better?

the thing is those kits are about 2500.00 and it dont justify spending a pile of dough to look at a tractor. yes i know what these guys are talking about ,... BUT this is not a new tractor in the shop being repaired. why is there tolerences to follow then, huh? under tolerance and all is good. they sound like parts replacers we have now a days working in shops.do you think all these restored old tractors in the museum are restored to new spec's? hardly think so they are made to run . these old engines are not like the new engines , they forgive a lot.  as i said before using starting fluid does more damage than any new ring put on an old piston. like holy mam,... the neighbor put a used piston in his 1965  airplane and i see it flying around over me quite a bit this summer. i am going for a ride also but waiting on this virus to clear. 

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5 hours ago, rustred said:

they sound like parts replacers we have now a days working in shops.

You really are something red.  It's not about used.  It's about used junk. 

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I didn't participate in the other thread and this issue is getting old

 There is no need for a piston to fail like in the picture when re ringed . if the ring lands are out of spec they can be cut oversize and spring steel spacers installed which  any good automotive machine shop can do and the spacers can be purchased to fit virtually any size. they must also be as clean as the day they were made. Ether or improperly installed rings can also cause such damage

 you can talk about skirt specs etc but the engine does not need to grenade in a year like what has been suggested. I would be more worried about cylinder taper but who really cares what I think ?️ ?

Gally gee it is a WD9 that has NLA piston and sleeve kits which will never do a 100 hours of work again/ probably cost the OP $3000 by the time he get them across the pond from Webers or Carr !  what I am getting at is never say never. if you 2 guys aren't comfortable re ringing something there are guys that will do it with some degree of luck. its been done millions of times

 I prefer new parts but it you have to look at the big picture

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2 hours ago, hillman said:

There is no need for a piston to fail like in the picture when re ringed .

Happens all the time.  

 

2 hours ago, hillman said:

if the ring lands are out of spec they can be cut oversize and spring steel spacers installed which  any good automotive machine shop can do

I've never seen a "good" automotive machine shop willing to do this.  Or knurl pistons.  Not for about 30 or 40 years anyway.  No reputable shop will do it. They know the risk.

 

2 hours ago, hillman said:

its been done millions of times

It has been done millions of times.  Over 1/2 of which never made it to 50 hours. The rest either were good pistons that didn't need to be taken out, and a small percentage that just got lucky.  They weren't wore bad enough to cause immediately breakage, and the machine not ran enough to matter.  

Most of the stories told on here of using old pistons by all the old blowhard farmer mechanic wannabe boys never needed to come out of the bore anyway.  If you took a piston out that was good enough to use over then it wasn't wore out to begin with was it. 90% of the re-rings jobs were done because they were in there, not because the rings lost seal.  

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2 minutes ago, rustred said:

yes, ok JUNK MECH.!

Good lord you are pathetic.  Name calling because you lack experience and education to formulate a valid argument,  so now I'm just "junk".  Well played.  You sure told me. 

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3 hours ago, hillman said:

this issue is getting old

I agree there.  One of these days maybe we'll get through to you guys and you will understand what we are trying to teach you.  There are guys on here so convinced they know that they will never listen.  Those guys are a lost hope.  But I will debate with them.  Every time.

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29 minutes ago, J-Mech said:

Good lord you are pathetic.  Name calling because you lack experience and education to formulate a valid argument,  so now I'm just "junk".  Well played.  You sure told me. 

 haa, ya talk is cheap . there is bull gears and bull headed.  

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28 minutes ago, J-Mech said:
3 hours ago, hillman said:

There is no need for a piston to fail like in the picture when re ringed .

Happens all the time.  

where did I say it doesn't happen? 

  You are a very brilliant mechanic J but I need zero , zelch teaching from you LOL you are 100% correct on the best practice and thats great I agree but it can be done in a less desirable way. 

I laid off this thread a couple days, posted against my better judgement and was going to tell the OP how to get the shaft out but you commented even though you admit you don't know how to do it and from your comments you don't    This forum was much better without you Jonathan ..you have turned it into a $hit show

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2 minutes ago, rustred said:

 haa, ya talk is cheap . there is bull gears and bull headed.  

Ain't that the truth!  

There are also mechanics and guys who pretend to be.  

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