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TD9B Power Shift Problem


JL49
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I love this forum but I am a newbie for posting.  I have a 1965 TD-9B with a Power Shift that I have been rebuilding.  A few months back I pulled the motor (D282) and completely rebuilt it from the bare block out.  It runs like locomotive and all 75-horses are kicking.  However, a new motor is worthless when you cannot push anything.  The tractor stops in its tracks when it meets resistance and is very slow in climbing the hills of TN.  Second gear is totally out of the question on any uphill grade.  I thought the steering clutches may be slipping but after adjusting them and the brakes - - I can turn on a dime and do donuts with either track.  I then looked for transmission issues.  Found no kinked/pinched hydraulic lines.  Looked for dirty filters and found no filters.  Both, suction and pressure filters have been removed by a previous owner.  Found the transmission oil to be a little milky, so drained all.  Refilled with 5W-30 and operated the tractor a distance of about 200-yards.  Drained and refilled with 15W-40.  Then ran pressure test at the (3) ports on the gear selector.  Added a couple of washers on top of the main pressure spring to bring the pressure up from 160psi to 195psi.   The converter by-pass valve is at 70psi and lubrication pressure valve is at 20psi.  All are within specs.  I am now wondering if the internal transmission clutch pack is going out.  Am I missing something?  Does anyone have any suggestions as to what might be causing the tractor not being able to push?  If it is the clutch pack,(and before I pull the motor again), does anyone know of a contact person that might be able to source the parts I need, or help with brain storming the possible problem?

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When she stops pushing does the drive shaft stop turning indicating converter issue or does drive shift keep turning indicating transmission ??

gg

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Not sure how to see the drive shaft.  I removed the inspection plate on top of the bell housing and the torque converter between the motor and transmission is turning.  I also removed the inspection plate at the rear of the tractor and can see the beveled gear and above it there is a shaft that is not turning when she stops.  Should I be looking somewhere else?

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Driveshaft should be coming out of the torque converter to the transmission if it’s still turning when your machine stops then the problem is in your transmission 

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No drive shaft on 9B like larger tractors have.  Conv is coupled to trans much like a car.  How does it act in rev?  Will it climb a hill backward?  Will it try to spin tracks with brakes held in rev?  Sounds like pressures are good.  Does clutch press stay up at idle and in gear?  Nuff questions for now. 

Dennis

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Louie - I have a manual but have not found anything that really addresses stalling.

Hardtail - Farmalldr is correct in that you cannot see the connection of the convertor to the transmission as it is abutted tight to the transmission.

Farmalldr - my son asked me the same question about climbing a hill in reverse - - don't know - - will have to try that.  Will also have to get back with you on trying to spin the tracks with brakes held in reverse and if pressures stay up at idle and in gear.  I didn't try pressure reading while in gear. 

I am working in NM and tractor is at my farm in TN.  I will get answers to your questions in about a week when I get back to TN.

I think all of you for your feedback.  Like I said in my opening - -  I love this forum!

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JL49,  You did a good job checking out trans/conv system.  Need some filters though.  Suction is a washable screen.  Is there one similar to suction one up along the engine?  Some machines did and that is a screen for converter out oil before the cooler.  Could determine possible converter issues.  Your post about looking in the pto hole in the rear got me thinking.  I know, that surprises me too.  If the upper shaft you see is splined, and inline with the hole, it is for driving a winch.  That shaft is the f & r clutch pack shaft and the other end is spline to converter out through a short splined shaft.  It should be turning when in neutral or when bevel gear is turning.  If in gear and bevel gear not turning it should be stopped.  Here is a test, will take two people, don't get hurt and WOULD NOT advise in reverse.  Bury the blade, put in forward hi or lo and hold the brakes so bevel gear can't turn.  As one person increases the throttle the other can watch the spline shaft from the rear.  The spline shaft should not turn while in gear if bevel gear is held.  If it does, the forward clutch pack is slipping.  If it does not turn even at high rpm the clutch pack is probably good and you may have a converter issue.  If you do end up taking it apart, check the splines on the small shaft coming out of the converter closely.  Hope my memory is good, I'm getting old ya know.

Agree with Hector on lighter oil.  10w was originally used but a hy-trans oil would be good.  Don't think this is cause of the problem though.  For parts, FP Smith in Calif may be a good start.  Top of the construction site here is a list of vendors.  good luck.  I'll help if I can but it has been a while.

Dennis

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Farmalldr - you and Hector both are correct about the oil.  15w-40 is not the correct oil - - all I had at the time.  Have not been able to find a part number for the filters, or a source to buy them.  Any suggestions?  Thanks for the test procedure.  I will try it.  I thought the spline shaft was for a wench.

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  • 2 weeks later...

To update: It has been a few weeks before I could get back and try the test procedure as described to possibly determine if I have a torque converter, or transmission clutch pack issue.  I buried the blade going forward in low gear and the tractor stopped.  My son was at the rear of the tractor looking into the PTO hole at the splined shaft for a wench - - and the shaft stopped when the tractor failed to move.  I held the brakes and slowly increased the rpms to full throttle and neither the tractor, nor the shaft ever moved.  I’m guessing this indicates the pushing problem is in the TC, which is surprising since I had it rebuilt when I rebuilt the motor.  I have pulled the motor (again) and will have the TC rebuilt (again).  I will install filters on both pump’s suction lines (transmission to cooler and blade rams to reservoir), as a previous owner removed them.  While I have the motor out, I am going to tear into the transmission and rebuild the clutch pack.  Is there anything particular that I should be looking at, or doing when I start removing/rebuilding the clutch pack? 

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Hello JL49,  Sounds like the clutch pack is holding and converter is not sending any power to it.  Good idea that you are going to go into the clutch packs now with the engine out again.  Never know what may happen when more power is applied.  I think you said you have the service manual.  Just follow it and you will do fine.

Converter is very basic.  Short of being destructed the only thing I can come up with is that the stator is in backward.  The stator is the small element in the middle. The thick edge of the  stator fins needs to be toward the turbine which is the element under the cover and splined to the output.  Some converter stators also have a one way sprag bearing which allows it to free wheel one direction but not the other.  Important that it is not backward also.  9B may not have the sprag bearing however.  A lot of work, sorry you had to r&i the engine twice.

FP Smith in Calif. or General Gear in Boise (also called tractorparts.com) may be good parts sources.  There are probably others too.  Just Google the p/n's you need.  good luck

Dennis

Edited by farmalldr
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JL49,

I may have given you some bad information about the winch drive shaft.  I was doing it from memory and have now found a gear train schematic.  The winch drive is actually the countershaft so what I had said about the trouble shooting may not apply.  I am very sorry.  But, you are going into the clutch pack anyway so hopefully nothing is lost from my miscalculation.  I will be very interested in what you find.  You possibly could find a bad clutch pack.

Sorry    Dennis

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  • 3 weeks later...

Dennis – no apology needed.  My son and I made to the decision to rebuild the entire drive train.  We are In the tear down process for rebuilding the torque converter, transmission clutch pack, brake bans and steering clutches.  Have pulled the motor, disassembled the transmission and steering clutch assemblies.  Haven’t had a chance to dive into the smoking gun that is not allowing the dozer push anything.  Will update in few weeks when I return to the farm for more fun in this process.  Thought I would share a few pictures showing the wreck - - down to only main frame and tracks.  Appreciate your input. 

James

"A man doesn't know what he knows until he knows what he doesn't know"

TD9B_rear.jpg

TD9B_front.jpg

D282.jpg

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Looks like a project James, and you have a warm dry place to do it.  I see you are keeping your engine warmed up next to the stove.  Anxious to hear the reason for no push power.

Keep us up to date on your progress.  Happy New Year.

Dennis

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  • 2 months later...

Dennis – glad you asked.  Been meaning to give an update.  It has been a slow endeavor as my job is getting in the way of working on my big boy toys.  I am working in NM and my tractor is at the farm in TN.  I only get to work on it 2 or 3 days every 2 or 3 weeks.  We think we found the smoking gun that was causing the dozer not to push when it met resistance.  In the transmission clutch pack we found the (2) O-Rings of the force piston assembly to have excessive wear.  Additionally, we found the Hooked Sealing Rings to be worn when we micro metered the old with the new ones.  We now have all of the parts to rebuild the clutch pack.  Since we are so deep into the tractor, it made sense to rebuild the steering brakes and clutches (new pads, drive & friction discs).  For the most part, the rebuild of the right side went fairly well but the left side is whole different story.  My son and I have worked several days trying to back out the pivot bolt on the bottom of the release fork from underneath the tractor, as this is like step one in the disassembly. Without the removal of the release fork, it is impossible to remove the shaft coupling retainers inside the bearing adjuster assembly.
There is very little room to get on pivot bolt because of a main frame brace just below it.  We fabricated a tool that we could hit with a 8lb hammer but that didn’t budge it.  We cut the release fork (after we sourced another one), so we could remove the coupling retainers.  However, one of the bottom bolts in the flange of the adjuster assembly directly lines up with the ceased pivot bolt, thus not allowing the bolt in the flange plate to back out enough to clear for removal of the drum assembly.   On my next trip to the farm, the plan is to torch the bolt that is almost out of the adjuster flange so we can remove the drum assembly and then deal with the removal of the pivot bolt somehow from the top side.   Will let you know how it goes on my next trip in about 3-wks.  Have attached pictures of the clutch pack and right side steering clutch assemblies for show & tell.

clutch pack.jpg

clutch pack parts.jpg

steering clutch removal.jpg

Steering Clutch.jpg

Steering clutch parts.jpg

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JL, that all looks familiar.  Hope you have found your problem.  Might want to double check the converter to be sure it was assembled properly.  Just a suggestion.  Hard to deal with a fun project when work gets in the way.  Especially when work is remote.  Good luck with it all and keep us up to date.

Dennis

When you get ready to install the piston housing over the separator disc and o ring you are going to think the o ring is way too large.  It is not.  You have to feed the o ring into the piston with your fingers as you apply a little pressure with the palm of your hands.  I know you didn't ask for advise but here it is anyways. ?

Edited by farmalldr
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Dennis - Agree with having the convertor checked if it was assembled correctly - - and will do.  Always appreciate suggestions and advise!, particularly since this new territory for me.  Will update on the progress in a few weeks.

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  • 1 month later...

Just a quick update.  In my last post, I described what a bear it has been in disassembling the left steering drum assembly due to not being able to backout the adjustment on the pivot bolt for removal of the release fork in order to remove the coupling retainers.  We cut the release fork in (3) sections in hopes to remove the drum assembly.  However, one of the bottom bolts in the flange of the bearing adjuster assembly lined up perfect with the problem child pivot bolt, so we were back at square one with not be able to remove the coupling retainers.  Where there is a well - - there is a way.  We made the drastic decision to torch off the top of the pivot bolt just enough so we could remove the last bottom bolt from the adjuster assembly and then was able to disassemble the couplings and remove the drum assembly.  Once the drum was out we were looking at the pivot bolt with top 1/3 torched off.  We welded a grade-#8, 1-1/4” nut onto the shaft of the pivot bolt and was able to raddle it loose and out from the top with an impact tool.  It is our belief that this side of the dozer was submerged under water for some period time.  Everything on this side was rusty and had parts that were seized.  This side had the original brake bans and steering clutches (since 1965) that were worn to paper thin and a couple were broken. The threads on the brake coupling nut were rusted and seized, as well as the coupling swivel pins connecting the brake bans.  Hand to press the shaft out of the pilot bearing (which was full of rusted grit).  Have new pivot bolt, brake bans, steering clutches, seal but have to order new pilot bearing before we can reassemble.  The rebuild of the transmission clutch pack is next as soon as we get this side back together.  Have attached some pictures for show and tell.  (new & old  release forks, new and old pivot bolt with welded nut for removal of old and a fabricated wrench that we beat with an 8lb hammer in attempt to loosen.  Pressing out of shaft from pilot bearing and state of clutches upon disassembly).  Don’t why the last picture has a green tint?

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  • 3 months later...

An update on the progress of this extensive drive train rebuild.  Have completed the rebuild of the both steering clutch & brake assemblies on each side and have completed the rebuild of the forward/reverse clutch pack inside the transmission, including the pump.  Next is the torque convertor. 

Dennis (farmalldr), we plan on taking your advise and disassemble the convertor to see if it was assembled properly when I had it rebuilt by a local shop a year or so back, when we rebuilt the motor.  Will tear into the convertor this weekend and see if anything looks out of order.

Was wondering if IH had any problems with the original convertors and if an aftermarket more modern convertor might be an option?  Does anyone know - - or, is this a thought of no consequence?

Thanks,

James

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JL49,  Good to hear from you, been wondering about your progress.  Sounds like you have made some.  Any problems found in the clutch packs that would cause the slipping?  Good luck with the rest.  Curious what you find in the converter.  Not much else left.  I don't recall the converters being a problem.  The drive straps could be if the alignment of the engine is not correct.  Make sure the engine is pulling the converter around with the straps and not pushing it, if that makes sense.  A better description is the engine needs to try stretching the straps rather than compressing them  Confused yet?

Dennis

Edited by farmalldr
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