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Oil canister filters.....I thought they went away in the 60's


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I just can't believe with a "state of the art" engine, why in the world you'd put on, not only canister fuel filter but also a stupid canister oil filter! Are the engineers THAT brain dead? They put the filter in a place you can't hardly get the dumb *ssed 50mm socket in to take the filter off. They do have a cheap plastic drain on it though so you don't get totally drenched in oil. What a moronic, stupid setup!

It can't be a cheap setup to make, why not just put a single big filter like a 3406?

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Change oil on a new navistar engine. Centrifugal canister filter made of plastic with a bushing in the end that sizes up even though it's covered in oil inside. Thus, filter tends to clog and not filter. Been there, delt with it. $200 for a new plastic cap, $100 filter. 

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FPT will tell you that with so many different applications for those engines...they would have to make so many different filter adaptations for every different engine application it would be cost prohibitive to make it a spin-on design. In other words....they're being cheap.

Whats interesting on Tier IVa Steigers is that 550/600s use the setup you are describing....while 400/450 and 500 models use a looong spin-on filter...that costs well over $100. I walked up to the parts counter one day to see firsthand a "discussion" between our parts manager and a good customer of ours....about the cost of THAT filter. I told the guy that if he would factor in that that filter only needs to be changed every 600 hours, its actually pretty cheap overall. He didn't see it that way.

If you think a 600 is bad, don't look at a Tier IVb model like a 540/580/620 model....they hung another water intercooler under the oil pan on Tier IVb...and the piping/plumbing for the intercooler is just underneath the bottom of the engine oil filter...the access is that much worse on them.

As far as canister filters....the CVT big Pumas and small Magnums take the cake. First off, they use 3 filters for the transmission...one is spin-on, 2 are canister. The one canister filter, from the factory, has a clean-up filter element in it that is not available from the parts system....and is a different length than its replacement element. So....when you replace the original filter, you have to replace the element AND the can it fits in. Great idea...

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5 hours ago, SDman said:

FPT will tell you that with so many different applications for those engines...they would have to make so many different filter adaptations for every different engine application it would be cost prohibitive to make it a spin-on design. In other words....they're being cheap.

Whats interesting on Tier IVa Steigers is that 550/600s use the setup you are describing....while 400/450 and 500 models use a looong spin-on filter...that costs well over $100. I walked up to the parts counter one day to see firsthand a "discussion" between our parts manager and a good customer of ours....about the cost of THAT filter. I told the guy that if he would factor in that that filter only needs to be changed every 600 hours, its actually pretty cheap overall. He didn't see it that way.

If you think a 600 is bad, don't look at a Tier IVb model like a 540/580/620 model....they hung another water intercooler under the oil pan on Tier IVb...and the piping/plumbing for the intercooler is just underneath the bottom of the engine oil filter...the access is that much worse on them.

As far as canister filters....the CVT big Pumas and small Magnums take the cake. First off, they use 3 filters for the transmission...one is spin-on, 2 are canister. The one canister filter, from the factory, has a clean-up filter element in it that is not available from the parts system....and is a different length than its replacement element. So....when you replace the original filter, you have to replace the element AND the can it fits in. Great idea...

Thats good to know.  The puma needs trans serviced

Da#$ engineers....

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The icing on the cake is the composite canister that, if it was overtightened, can be damaged so it will also have to be replaced. Of course the dealer doesn't stock THAT part.

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You guys do realize that spin-on filters are a scam, right?

The only part of the filter that needs replacement is the paper element inside. Nothing wrong with the can, but you are forced to pay extra for it every time, and throw the old one away every time. Seems like a waste to me.

I know, I know, "convenience." Convenience only goes so far as the filters that are installed vertically with the opening up, and then only if you don't bump anything or make any sudden movements. Side mounted filters, or filters mounted with the opening facing down make just as much mess or more than a canister with a separate paper element.

Besides, I thought convenience was for "parts changers" not real mechanics, LOL

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Quite  possibly this resurgence has contributed to the toilet paper shortage...just sayin😳

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3 hours ago, hardtail said:

Quite  possibly this resurgence has contributed to the toilet paper shortage...just sayin😳

If you was a J C Whitney catalog reader do you remember when they had the oil filter canister kits that you actually used a roll of toilet paper? I do but never had one 

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No scam about it.  That new tin canister is clean---not full of crap like the canister housing you forgot to clean when changing the filter.    AND---you don't have to worry about getting the oring(s) in place correctly (although WHY does JD insist on using the spin on canisters with the separate oring that falls off the housing just as you get the filter spun on....?!?)  Engineer wise,  spin on filters are simply much less likely to get together wrong - and less likely to not get the filter so it works.   I will GLADLY pay an extra $10 to not wonder if I got the internal o-ring in place, etc, etc.   If that makes me a bad mechanic, so be it!:rolleyes::D

I agree canisters are back in--- many new cars are back to stupid plastic canisters that can be crossthreaded - are hard to reach (or even find! - Chevy Cruze)

What I don't understand is why so many canisters are a "can" you take off.....it makes WAY more sense to me, and is much less messy, for it to just be a fixed can with removable cap.  Unscrew the cap, pull out the filter.   Those old 806 canisters were why I traded it off!

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A9714260-C88B-45B5-8A50-4648969E0601.thumb.jpeg.402faa362a49a3965e83e109f9b38a5e.jpeg

I figured a bit more non-original material on this lady wouldn’t hurt. I really wish I had put the spin on kit on there a long time ago.  

Saved the factory canisters, oiled and packed away in the event that I ever switch out the turbo setup and buy another air cleaner, hood, turbo, manifold....

I agree on the automobile idea of just having a removable plastic cap, like a ford 6.0/6.4, opposed to having to remove the entire “can” part. 

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ST-470, while we are on this subject, I’ll offer some advice. You will want to remove that oil filter base and see if you can see a spring in one of the ports. We are finding the oil filter base relief valve getting damaged, causing engine oil to bypass the filter. This tends to cause failure of the top turbocharger. 

F7DF9BE0-33F1-453D-99F0-1913250CB3A7.jpeg

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8 hours ago, hagan said:

If you was a J C Whitney catalog reader do you remember when they had the oil filter canister kits that you actually used a roll of toilet paper? I do but never had one 

I thought it was popular mechanics probably more than one publication along with the 100 mpg carburetor retrofit kit

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Mercedes truck engines use a canister filter that I actually find pretty handy, it sits on top of the engine with the lid up so there's no mess removing it, wipe out the can and stick the new one in.

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12 hours ago, Matt Kirsch said:

You guys do realize that spin-on filters are a scam, right?

The only part of the filter that needs replacement is the paper element inside. Nothing wrong with the can, but you are forced to pay extra for it every time, and throw the old one away every time. Seems like a waste to me.

I know, I know, "convenience." Convenience only goes so far as the filters that are installed vertically with the opening up, and then only if you don't bump anything or make any sudden movements. Side mounted filters, or filters mounted with the opening facing down make just as much mess or more than a canister with a separate paper element.

Besides, I thought convenience was for "parts changers" not real mechanics, LOL

I much prefer a spin on for the reason that you can easily take a ear tag marker and write the date and hours on it when changing it

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Bought a new Chevy Cobalt in 2005.  Took it to about 230,000 miles before someone blew a stop sign and hit the side of it.  At some point the stupid plastic filter top had a hairline crack in causing oil to push out.  I'm sure it was stress from taking it off changing the oil.  I changed the oil countless times in that car and never over tightened the thing.  Dealer had a new plastic top on the shelf.  It tells me I wasn't the first one that had it fail.

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10 hours ago, hagan said:

If you was a J C Whitney catalog reader do you remember when they had the oil filter canister kits that you actually used a roll of toilet paper? I do but never had one 

I remember them before from volkswagens. They were actually supposed to be pretty decent filters but I never had the nerve to use one.  I think oberg made a bypass filtration system that used toilet paper as well.

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13 hours ago, SDman said:

ST-470, while we are on this subject, I’ll offer some advice. You will want to remove that oil filter base and see if you can see a spring in one of the ports. We are finding the oil filter base relief valve getting damaged, causing engine oil to bypass the filter. This tends to cause failure of the top turbocharger. 

F7DF9BE0-33F1-453D-99F0-1913250CB3A7.jpeg

At about $305.00 it's cheap insurance to update to the new filter base with the improved bypass valve.

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8 hours ago, Rawleigh99 said:

I remember them before from volkswagens. They were actually supposed to be pretty decent filters but I never had the nerve to use one.  I think oberg made a bypass filtration system that used toilet paper as well.

We have added filtration system on our chopper engine and transmission. Made by kleanoil or something like that. It's a bypass system that does a tiny bit at a time but much finer than the stock filter 

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At fire dept we have an IH 7600 tanker with Maxi-Force 13 engine. I would just love to have one of the engineers help me service that engine. Horrible location for canister oil filter under heater hoses and wiring harness. I detest that working on that thing, takes an hour to just change filter cartridge. 

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9 hours ago, hobbyfarm said:

Dealer had a new plastic top on the shelf.  It tells me I wasn't the first one that had it fail.

Or maybe they just had a better parts department manager than the CaseIH dealer that didn't stock one for the Steiger?

Makes me chuckle. If they don't have some obscure part on the shelf for you, they're incompetent. If they do, it must be because there's a known flaw in the part.

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20 hours ago, hagan said:

If you was a J C Whitney catalog reader do you remember when they had the oil filter canister kits that you actually used a roll of toilet paper? I do but never had one 

Got one on the shelf.

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Were you supposed to remove the cardboard tube in them or did it stay in? Can’t quite remember how they were supposed to work?

I forgot my buddy has one of those other TP filters on his plasma cutter for moisture

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On 11/8/2020 at 3:36 PM, SDman said:

FPT will tell you that with so many different applications for those engines...they would have to make so many different filter adaptations for every different engine application it would be cost prohibitive to make it a spin-on design. In other words....they're being cheap.

Whats interesting on Tier IVa Steigers is that 550/600s use the setup you are describing....while 400/450 and 500 models use a looong spin-on filter...that costs well over $100. I walked up to the parts counter one day to see firsthand a "discussion" between our parts manager and a good customer of ours....about the cost of THAT filter. I told the guy that if he would factor in that that filter only needs to be changed every 600 hours, its actually pretty cheap overall. He didn't see it that way.

 

It still makes no sense. A spin on filter can be mounted most anywhere and you don't need a stupid 50mm socket and a 3' breaker bar to loosen it because someone previously used a 2' wrench too overtighten it:( 

 I'll be glad to crush and recycle a spin on filter even though it might be a little more expensive. And there isn't much better to say about the stupid final fuel filter also. What a JOKE!!!

You bring up a good point with the 400's not only are they a canister type, but you throw the canister away and put on a new dumb *ssed canister back on! You can't make this stupid sh*t up!! Granted it's a 600hr drain interval but it should still be a $30 filter and not $100!!

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