I love 86s

[TP from Central PA]

Oliver had interesting ideas, but the engine choice killed anything they could have had...................The 1850 got it right on the engine, but was still lacking in the brake department, they got that fixed on the 55's, but then the ship wrecks were under the hood.  They got the Perk back in the whites, but by that time, the competition driven right past them.  By the time of the 50 series IH's, 50 series Deere's, 8000 Allis', etc I don't know how they sold any Whites.......................They must have been some smooth talking salesman.

[Big Bud guy]

29 minutes ago, Reichow7120 said:

Ill agree with the statement on White tractors. Someone mentioned the larger frame tractors being more trouble free than the smaller ones. I declare BS on that one. At one time there were 3 farms running Whites of that vintage. All hit that 5000 hr mark and they started to nickel and dime them to death. One farm bought Magnums when they got fed up. ( they were running 2 2-135s and a 2-105 along with a 1850 Oliver, still have the Oliver) the other farm switched his Whites to a Deere 8200 and a 7810. The last farm still has them but he admits that he's always working on them and that includes a 2-180. That's our neighborhood. 

My 1256 has just over 6,000 hrs.  So far it has needed pump work, power steering doesn't work right, shifting linkage doesn't work right similar to a synchro, and needs injector work.  They are not untouchable either.  

[Big Bud guy]

2 hours ago, hillman said:

I think you base your opinions on 2020 views that would be make your decisions in 1958. 1958 decisions were made in 1958 .1945 decisions were made in 1945 with that perspective- it seems peeps forget that train of thought 

we had a neighbor who baled with a JD 40 and if you want to take all day to bale a couple loads thats your tractor. Like I said the 340 was there on the sales brochure for a little more money but in that era I am sure I would pass on it as well. IH sold a lot of British tractors here and most of them were equipped with a loader. 10 times the loader tractor a 240 was. The hp race was on by 1958 and the 240 was stepping down in hp for anyone. there are guys on here complaining IH should have introduced larger  tractors sooner and now they needed to refine the baby in the line up. the 240 was there because it was easy to build with some existing components for a cheap tractor.  it did not sell well because there was not a huge market for that size tractor as farms were increasingly getting larger. should they have invested in refining a tractor with very little sales prospects? no

 WFE never made a quality tractor in the league of the 86( IMHO) I think your bank account would agree after 5000 hrs if you were running both. you may like the cab better but I can put up with the IH cab if it is in the field where it belongs and my money in my pocket where it belongs. Never run a 2-180 but did run a 2-105 and I am sure an 806 would run circles around it. No I am not color blind - I have a MM g1000 and its cool to own in 2020 but in 1965 it would not be here 

 

First of all there is some big upgrades from a 40 to a 420 including the horsepower.  And at the time we had about 40 head of cows.  So if we could only bale a couple of loads each day big deal.  I do find it interesting a lot of balers from that time period has Wisconsin engines on them and there has to be a reason for that.  So what combination would you choose.  A baler with a Wisconsin or a tractor with a live PTO to run a baler.  

From 1956 through 1960 JD sold over 45,000 420/430/435s.  I left out the 440 since it was the industrial version of the 430 and I left out the crawler versions for obvious reasons.  To make a fair comparison in the two years the 240 and 430/35 were on the market together, JD sold over 17,000 430/435s from 1958 to 1960.  According to this website, IH sold just over 10,000 240s TOTAL from 1958 to 1962.  Looking at them is it possible that reason you say the 240 was not selling well is because IH wasn't keeping it updated?  Just going by the internet, it sounds like FORD and MF were dominating the small utility market even more then JD.  Maybe IH was giving up on the small tractor.  Didn't the 404 lack a live PTO as well.  I have no idea what British tractor or what you are talking about.  Never have seen such a thing.  Could you get a direction reverser on them??  You could on the 420/430.  Our loader tractor at the time was our Farmall M with a Farmhand loader.  Worked good but it would have worked better with a Oliver underneath the loader or a later Farmall like a 450.  

And you missed my point on the White tractor.  I said for drawbar work I would consider a 2-180.  Were was IH's 180 hp row crop tractor???  Case, AC, JD, and White all had one.  I probably wouldn't have bought a MM G1000 in 1965 either.  Thats because we had a JD 5010.  

[hillman]

56 minutes ago, Big Bud guy said:

First of all there is some big upgrades from a 40 to a 420 including the horsepower.  And at the time we had about 40 head of cows.  So if we could only bale a couple of loads each day big deal.  I do find it interesting a lot of balers from that time period has Wisconsin engines on them and there has to be a reason for that.  So what combination would you choose.  A baler with a Wisconsin or a tractor with a live PTO to run a baler.  

From 1956 through 1960 JD sold over 45,000 420/430/435s.  I left out the 440 since it was the industrial version of the 430 and I left out the crawler versions for obvious reasons.  To make a fair comparison in the two years the 240 and 430/35 were on the market together, JD sold over 17,000 430/435s from 1958 to 1960.  According to this website, IH sold just over 10,000 240s TOTAL from 1958 to 1962.  Looking at them is it possible that reason you say the 240 was not selling well is because IH wasn't keeping it updated?  Just going by the internet, it sounds like FORD and MF were dominating the small utility market even more then JD.  Maybe IH was giving up on the small tractor.  Didn't the 404 lack a live PTO as well.  I have no idea what British tractor or what you are talking about.  Never have seen such a thing.  Could you get a direction reverser on them?? 

And you missed my point on the White tractor.  I said for drawbar work I would consider a 2-180.  Were was IH's 180 hp row crop tractor???  Case, AC, JD, and White all had one.  I probably wouldn't have bought a MM G1000 in 1965 either.  Thats because we had a JD 5010.  

I am too lazy to look up the combined number of 240/340 tractors and make a defense for my conclusion but you know what I am getting at. the British tractors I refer to are the B250( intro 1956) and B275(intro 1958) Tractor Data has the B275 price in 1961 $2800  and 240 price 1962 $2700. it would be a no brainer between the two, no reverser but most had a loader on them and they are still very common here

funny thing about no live shaft on the 240. Cockshutt invented the ILPTO and they did not put it on the Cockshutt 20 which is comparable to the 240/ I believe Oliver didn't put it on the 60 or 66 either

using 2 cylinder Johhny Poppers to demonstrate the lack of development on another brand is a stretch. they were out of date and JD knew it

56 minutes ago, Big Bud guy said:

I do find it interesting a lot of balers from that time period has Wisconsin engines on them and there has to be a reason for that.  So what combination would you choose.  A baler with a Wisconsin or a tractor with a live PTO to run a baler.  

 

 

interesting and ridiculous about power units on combines and balers but that goes to show farmers were still ready to accept no live shaft

it is good to debate with you BBG 

[hillman]

1 hour ago, Big Bud guy said:

My 1256 has just over 6,000 hrs.  So far it has needed pump work, power steering doesn't work right, shifting linkage doesn't work right similar to a synchro, and needs injector work.  They are not untouchable either.  

OMG- there are other brands that have had major overhauls by 6000 hrs and closing in on another

[CIHTECH]

Have a White 2-155 series 3 setting here on lot waiting for a clutch job. I am kind of a Oliver / White closet fan, that is what I grew up on. Brother has a White 120 which is a 2-135 rear with 5.9 Cummins in front of it, been a good tractor for him. 

[cedar farm]

I always thought Oliver was like Mopar. Had new fangled ideas for their time that were not accepted right away. Six cylinder. IPTO/hydraulics. Electric over hydraulics. Fenders were standard equipment. 

[IHhogfarmer]

On 9/22/2020 at 3:46 PM, hillman said:

if you cannot drive one pickup Farmington's #8 video with the 806 VS 4020 comparison. its the only comedy in their entire catalog of videos

 I do not understand the few haters on the 66 or 86 series

Since the first time I saw that film my favorite line was and still is “is this shift on the go? If it is ol John Deere himself had better prove it.”?

[hillman]

2 hours ago, IHhogfarmer said:

Since the first time I saw that film my favorite line was and still is “is this shift on the go? If it is ol John Deere himself had better prove it.”?

that video is outrageous ? I almost felt bad IH put the boots to that Deere but I got over it

[Sledgehammer]

Sometimes they do that all by themselves...  I took this pic at HCOP in 2019. 

[jimw]

 Everyone has there opinion? This is a IH forum. Always like Oliver and white tractors, shifted good pretty nimble, remember talking to a white salesman about a 2-180 they had, can it keep up with a 1586 or 4840 I asked, no he says , the international or JD will easily outwork it, still loads of cool ? looking at it. Ran a friends 2255 Oliver again cool as **** till u pull it. Buying some hay from a neighbor he had a g1000 with a dual loader on it. I can see why they went out of business. Probably good in the field but not so much on a loader. Guess I’ve said it before but growing up in the 70s and 80s there were a lot of farms in my area that had 30 and 40 series Deere, most had M’s or super M’s for loader tractors, the old Johnny poppers were already parade tractors, There was. Good Oliver dealer in Edsmond. ND that sold Oliver’s. I wonder how many 1555s he sold. I think u could buy a bare tractor for 3995? I was told. Hard to beat a 1555, not sure I’d take a 656 over one. Just my 2cents

[ottofreise]

Nice thing about farming is, everyone has there own way of farming and there own preference of equipment.  I love my 986, and could see myself farming with out it. Oh love my wife too?. 

[TP from Central PA]

I always liked the over/under.  The little ones were great machines, they didn't get outclassed until the larger ones, I never understood who thought putting the putty to the 310 was a good idea.......compared to those IH's kraut 310 was way over built, the KGB should have high jacked some blue prints and got them over to Oliver.

[jdetig1]

 

I have a 1086 and get along great with it. 3rd owner and original paint. For those that complain about the doors, put the cylinder kits on and don’t worry about it. Obviously they were good tractors if they are still being used today. Yeah hydraulics leave a bit to be desired but who would have thought they were going to be trying to run a planter from the 2000’s with a tractor from the 70’s. I don’t mind John Deere 30 series. Would I ever buy one? Heck no. Maybe a 40 series. All companies made some good tractors.

[DirtBoyz07]

Here is my newest addition to the family along with its brothers #8601 and #8602 , I have always liked the 86 series line , it was the first tractors I got to setup when I started at IH back in the day ??

Danny

[TroyDairy]

On 9/21/2020 at 12:27 PM, Big Bud guy said:

I think I've seen before why you prefer the 66 series but if you had to farm the way we did, which is spending hours, days, and weeks on tractors there is no way in he!! you would want a 66 series.  Everyone one I see around here has the cab trashed and doors taken off.  Tells me they weren't a good cab in the first place.  Only way I would take a 66 series is for stationary PTO work.  

Dad has said he thought IH which was King here, was killed b/c of SGC and powershift.  Then in the Farm Crisis a local boy from NW IA moved in and brought in the farm auction stuff.  The were cheap and comfortable so IH 86 were killed.

I dont hate my 186 a bit.  Sure it has its things but so does a 4440 or a tw-30 etc.  66 are neat open station for hay work I think.  I see why the cab is not loved.  But it was better then the ICB cab or a heat houser.  If someone asked for my 1066 I think I would say yes.  I could see a mx120mfd or even 7120 md being more handy.....resale prices agree there!   I have speant aloooot of time in that 186....got with 4000 in 1999 and just about ready to roll 19000...1 trans and 100% OEM engine

[Big Bud guy]

12 hours ago, hillman said:

funny thing about no live shaft on the 240. Cockshutt invented the ILPTO and they did not put it on the Cockshutt 20 which is comparable to the 240/ I believe Oliver didn't put it on the 60 or 66 either

using 2 cylinder Johhny Poppers to demonstrate the lack of development on another brand is a stretch. they were out of date and JD knew it

interesting and ridiculous about power units on combines and balers but that goes to show farmers were still ready to accept no live shaft

it is good to debate with you BBG 

Ya but the Oliver 66 and Cockshutt 20 were not made in the late 50s into the early 60s either like the 240.  In fact the Oliver Super 66 did have a live pto and those hit the market in 1954.  And so did the Oliver 55 their first utility tractor.  It did take awhile for the bottom end tractors to get live pto.  The JD 40 didn't have it.  

Also, having only 2 cylinders on what is otherwise a conventional layout does not make a tractor outdated.  What is more advanced, a tractor with the option of live pto, direction reverser, and 5 speed transmission or a tractor with none of those features.  If you want to say the Waterloo series used an outdated design be my guest.  Doesn't take away from the fact JD kept the design competitive both in the field and in sales right up the end.  Honestly, for loader or haying work I would prefer a Farmall or Oliver.  But for heavy Wheatland farming, the 2 cylinder diesels were as good as any other.  And you are right, JD knew they were going to have to switch to conventional tractors as early as the late 40s.  The fact that the engine used in the JD M was designed to be expanded to 4 and 6 cylinder versions was no accident and JD did do that.  And if farmers and IH were paying attention, they would have noticed JD started making in house 4 and 6 cylinder engines in the 50s.  So it would have been only a matter of time.   

[Big Bud guy]

12 hours ago, Sledgehammer said:

Sometimes they do that all by themselves...  I took this pic at HCOP in 2019. 

 

Thats weird.  I didn't think 4020s had enough power to pull the front end off the ground.  

[Big Bud guy]

14 hours ago, jimw said:

 Everyone has there opinion? This is a IH forum. Always like Oliver and white tractors, shifted good pretty nimble, remember talking to a white salesman about a 2-180 they had, can it keep up with a 1586 or 4840 I asked, no he says , the international or JD will easily outwork it, still loads of cool ? 

We farmed with a MF 1800 for 8 years that used a Cat 3160 predecessor to the 3208.  It was 225 hp tractor but we treated it like a 300 hp tractor pulling the living sh!t out of it.  Never lost the engine.  Now I'm not going to say the small Cat V8s were great engines at all but we never lost ours and it pulled great.  My only conclusion is we ran the engine like you are suppose to for small block V8s.  Full throttle.  That salesman saying a 2-180 couldn't keep up with a 4840 or 1586, I would have taken him up on on that as a challenge or bet.  What I am saying is back int the day I would not have been afraid of the 3208.  

[Big Bud guy]

1 hour ago, TroyDairy said:

Dad has said he thought IH which was King here, was killed b/c of SGC and powershift.  Then in the Farm Crisis a local boy from NW IA moved in and brought in the farm auction stuff.  The were cheap and comfortable so IH 86 were killed.

 

My opinion is the SCB and other features kept IH from trying to even up with JD.  And actually, IH row crop tractors had fallen by the wayside here by the 86 series.  It was not helped by the fact our nearest IH dealer was pushing other brands like Versatile.

[TroyDairy]

On 9/24/2020 at 6:11 AM, Big Bud guy said:

My 1256 has just over 6,000 hrs.  So far it has needed pump work, power steering doesn't work right, shifting linkage doesn't work right similar to a synchro, and needs injector work.  They are not untouchable either.  

well its 50.  I am 46 and need work too....

[TroyDairy]

On 9/22/2020 at 10:11 AM, Big Bud guy said:

No doubt synchros were more popular but our 4020 was a powershift.  I’ve run into several more 4020s and other 20 series with powershifts.  I’ve even run into a few 40 series with powershifts not counting the 4840.  What’s funny is redpower is the only place on the internet were “powershifts were nonexistent in my area”.  I bet JD built just many powershift 4020s as IH built 806s.

fwiw.....I dont remember any 8sp locally.  Every JD I can recall had the quad... which I think is a fine shifting unit and reliable.  Must be a dealer thing..?

 

They all break, they all have a specific thing they are better at.  We dont do long big pulls, theb BBG dont do daily loader work or pto work.  Whatever whatever....get what works.

  PTO repairs cant get easier than a IH, JD shifts smoother for years vs 06-86, IH were better on fuel than others, whites [here] smoked like trains and their bodys just were light tin, Oliver was maybe ahead of their time,  Fords were...I know a GUY who likes them but otherwise...., IH cabs were fine for the time but SGC was ahead of everyone with quiet and sealed up, Deere were generally lighter from the factory.  It was 50 years ago these were designed....vs a B or M they were leaps ahead of tech 10 years before they came out.  Then leaps behind 20 years later.  All fine....

[B.B.]

I grew up on a small cattle farm with Angus cattle long before angus was the breed to have.  We had a mix of small tractors and equipment.  Had a small White 2-35 that did a lot around the farm, Oliver 55,  Minnie Mo U302 was the big tractor, and several Allis tractors.  I grew up planting what little corn we put out two rows at a time on an Allis WD, and I loathed that tractor.  I can still remember the auction when dad bought a 4 row white planter and I thought life would be so much easier. 

Local neighbor had a 600 acre dairy farm and he's up there in years now, but he still farms.  He had big whites and Olivers.  2-150 was a huge tractor to us when I was a kid.  I ran his 2-105 several times, and liked it but that tractor he had that I loved was his 986!   That's where my love for IH tractors started.   That 986 was a good looking tractor, it had slick black interior, and AC.   I wished as a kid growing up we could have a tractor as nice as that 986.   He chopped corn with it and I just loved to watch it, and listen to it, and the smell of course.  I really thought he was a BTO! 

Fast forward a few years, and I now have my own 986, and because of my experience as a kid I just love it.   I would like more than anything to have it completely restored same as or better than new.  

 

I say all this as I tend to take it a little personally when people bag on an 86 series.   I always think, you obviously haven't planted corn two rows at a time on a friggen Allis WD.....  But then I think my grandfather probably thought that WD was a fine tractor and I'm a big baby lol  Better than smelling horse farts!

 

[TP from Central PA]

Mto says Pumpkin power, "Best thing they ever built"....................

[hillman]

20 minutes ago, TP from Central PA said:

Mto says Pumpkin power, "Best thing they ever built"....................

I saw that thread Pumpkin Patch and I thought it was about an Allis grave yard