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The Covid 19 vaccine


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11 hours ago, New Englander said:

Right, but we're talking all vaccines and the chance of an adverse reaction not covid19 as it doesn't exist except possibly in Russia. You have to consider all the deaths that would happen without the vaccines such as smallpox, polio, mumps, measles, rubella, etc, etc.

It's an apples to grapefruit comparison.

Ok I took your original quote the wrong way then. I assumed you were just talking about Covid vaccine. I think a lot of people are skeptical about this current issue due to the amount of misinformation, smoke and mirrors, backtracking, and total cluster**** of a response that has taken place. But I understand your point of vaccines in general aren’t ALL bad.

But, for the record, Id still be p*ssed if they the made flu “vaccine” mandatory. A vaccine doesn’t seem like the thing to rush quickly out the door by the lowest bidder

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Only vaccine for me is going to occur on November 3.......

& Don't forget, the injection is to prevent a virus that you have a 80% chance of being asymptomatic from, and a 99.8% chance of surviving.

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3 minutes ago, zleinenbach said:

out the door by the lowest bidder

Hardly lowest bidder. The US government alone is spending over 9 BILLION, Germany another billion, the UK probably at least that much plus the Chinese and plenty more by private companies. No one is cheaping this.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/health/2020/08/08/feds-spending-more-than-9-billion-covid-19-vaccine-candidates/5575206002/

At 4,000 deaths/day presently and spikes over 10,000 deaths/day in the past months the world is taking this seriously.

https://ourworldindata.org/covid-deaths

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49 minutes ago, New Englander said:

 

At 4,000 deaths/day presently and spikes over 10,000 deaths/day in the past months the world is taking this seriously.

 

I will never believe those numbers are correct . 
 

yup , people are Dying from Covid 
 

people are also dying from other things as well . 
 

The numbers being put up by the mass media Hysteria Campaign are false.

If you want to buy into it that’s fine . 

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1 minute ago, lorenzo said:

I will never believe those numbers are correct . 
 

yup , people are Dying from Covid 
 

people are also dying from other things as well . 
 

The numbers being put up by the mass media Hysteria Campaign are false.

If you want to buy into it that’s fine . 

So it's a conspiracy by every country in the world to inflate their numbers? To what end? Why would EVERY country in the world do that? Is it the same reason that every country has conspired to tell us the world is round when they know it's flat? Come on, you're way smarter than that.

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12 minutes ago, New Englander said:

So it's a conspiracy by every country in the world to inflate their numbers? To what end? Why would EVERY country in the world do that? Is it the same reason that every country has conspired to tell us the world is round when they know it's flat? Come on, you're way smarter than that.

Well I’m am at the age where I might be forgetting things but I don’t think I mentioned anything about other country’s doing anything .  Oh wait I forgot ,  I guess I can just go back and read what I wrote a few minutes ago. 

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Just now, lorenzo said:

Well I’m am at the age where I might be forgetting things but I don’t think I mentioned anything about other country’s doing anything .  Oh wait I forgot ,  I guess I can just go back and read what I wrote a few minutes ago. 

Ha ha! Yeah, the numbers are for worldwide deaths, not USA only.

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Just now, New Englander said:

So it's a conspiracy by every country in the world to inflate their numbers? To what end? Why would EVERY country in the world do that? Is it the same reason that every country has conspired to tell us the world is round when they know it's flat? Come on, you're way smarter than that.

This is where I differ with you. 

My instincts tell me that in a panic at the beginning a lot of governments overreacted. Burned down economies and lives in the process ( remember they were at the beginning using Spanish flu death rates as their casualty rate for this too which i think we can all agree isn't at that rate) When the death rate didn't materialize at Spanish death rates, these governments had a issue. They screwed up and screwed up royally. Governments fall when the population realizes their leaders messed up that bad. Look at the current events in Lebanon after the explosion. Their government is resigning in face of massive protests. I guarantee if it came out that a lot of these governments kept pushing for the years of hardship we are going to endure to dig out of this hole and it wasn't necessary, heads are going to roll. Politicians are all survivalist politically speaking. They are not going to give up power easily. Its to intoxicating. So what you have is politicians all acting alike and thinking alike. Human beings aren't all that different in matters like this so those in power reached the same conclusion separately. We are painted ourselves in a corner and there is no way out now so we have to ride this out now is their thoughts. Simple survival. Plain and simple 

Heck if what we have done is so effective. Why are all these countries that were doing so awesome at controlling it having resurgence in the malady? Face it, by the time we realized what was happening it was to far gone. You want to stop it like this.  Catch it at the beginning, not 4 to 5 months later. At this point we're just kicking the can down the road is all. 

As far as the safety of a future vaccine that is rushed out. You mentioned it isn't out yet. You're correct however im willing to bet good money that by early next year they'll be pushing a vaccine out regardless. Im still not sure that this is a sufficient amount of time to make sure they're not issues with it. Sandhiller and i have skin in the game so to speak so I feel strongly about it. No one should be forced to choose between their profession and being injected with a experimental vaccine. It has a more complete testing period.  My objections are gone then.

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7 minutes ago, Reichow7120 said:

 

As far as the safety of a future vaccine that is rushed out. You mentioned it isn't out yet. You're correct however im willing to bet good money that by early next year they'll be pushing a vaccine out regardless. Im still not sure that this is a sufficient amount of time to make sure they're not issues with it. Sandhiller and i have skin in the game so to speak so I feel strongly about it. No one should be forced to choose between their profession and being injected with a experimental vaccine. It has a more complete testing period.  My objections are gone then.

Same here. I'm sure the plants we travel too are going to require it. May cost me my job. I'm not against vaccinating. Don't usually get a flu shot cause they're guessing at it. But if some one else wants to I don't care. I just don't understand somebody arguing that this one is going to be completely safe without long term trials. I mean you want your plane serviced properly don't you. Not just a quick walk around and I think it'll be alright. And if I understand correctly this virus has already mutated many times. So much like a flu shot it will be a guess. 

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17 minutes ago, Reichow7120 said:

No one should be forced to choose between their profession and being injected with a experimental vaccine.

Exactly, concisely, this^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

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1 hour ago, Reichow7120 said:

experimental vaccine

The thing is it won't be experimental. The human trials are underway now. To speed up the process the phase trials are being run almost concurrently, that's all. The development speed is due to the shear numbers working on it, the background work already done on similar virus, I.e MERS and SARS.

It's been brought up that no vaccine has made it faster than fours from inception to completion but that was over 50 years ago! Immunization, medicine and technology has advanced in leaps and bounds since then. The biggest worry about a new one is not that it won't be safe but that it won't be effective. The issue with, say, the Cutter incident, was that one lab screwed up, QC let a batch out that had live virus. That sad incident prompted more effective protocols to prevent it from happening again. Think of the Coconut Grove fire where everyone piled up against the doors and died. The fix was a national code that says doors on public buildings must open outwards. The disaster brought about meaningful change. The other issue with vaccines has been adverse reactions due to allergies. Egg is a well known one and others exist. Since they're known now the simple fix is not to use those allergens rather use substances known to be well tolerated. There's been lots of irrational fear spread by the conspiracy theorists. Things like Bill Gates created the virus, patented it, and will use the vaccine he develops to inject microchips to control our minds is just nonsense yet although most people understand it's nonsense the noise surrounding it creates fear that there might be something to it. I know this won't sway anyone who has a belief that all vaccines are work of the devil.

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1 hour ago, New Englander said:

The thing is it won't be experimental. The human trials are underway now. To speed up the process the phase trials are being run almost concurrently, that's all. The development speed is due to the shear numbers working on it, the background work already done on similar virus, I.e MERS and SARS.

All in the wording. Rushing may just push the release before any long term effects show up. It may not be apparent at first. It may take longer to show up. We don't know by rushing through it.

The other thing you bring up is SARS and MERS. You mention the background work on those viruses in the vaccine world. As far as I know they never produced a successful vaccine for those viruses. 

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1 hour ago, Reichow7120 said:

 

As far as the safety of a future vaccine that is rushed out. You mentioned it isn't out yet. You're correct however im willing to bet good money that by early next year they'll be pushing a vaccine out regardless. Im still not sure that this is a sufficient amount of time to make sure they're not issues with it. Sandhiller and i have skin in the game so to speak so I feel strongly about it. No one should be forced to choose between their profession and being injected with a experimental vaccine. It has a more complete testing period.  My objections are gone then.

What events and time frame need to take place for you to be sure of safety?

as far as no one being forced to choose between profession and injection, I disagree,  You work for the man, you follow the mans rules.  You dont like it, become the man and carry the burdens of the man.   That just seems to be the way it is, doesnt mean its the right way it should be.   

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2 hours ago, cjf711 said:

What events and time frame need to take place for you to be sure of safety?

as far as no one being forced to choose between profession and injection, I disagree,  You work for the man, you follow the mans rules.  You dont like it, become the man and carry the burdens of the man.   That just seems to be the way it is, doesnt mean its the right way it should be.   

More than under a year. Me personally 2 to 3 years should cover it .

By the way chief. It's my wife, not me in this predicament. I carry the burdens. If your talking running a business. Im in a farming partnership so im in the man spot as far as my position can be. 

Interesting you used the do what man tells you to do. Where does the line get drawn? Following anyone that blindly can lead to some real problems. I could in theroy mandate casteration to work in a field ( a extreme example i realize) and you'll be fine with that.  

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58 minutes ago, Reichow7120 said:

More than under a year. Me personally 2 to 3 years should cover it .

By the way cheif. It's my wife, not me in this predicament. I carry the burdens. If your talking running a business. Im in a farming partnership so im in the man spot as far as my position can be. 

Interesting you used the do what man tells you to do. Where does the line get drawn? Following anyone that blindly can lead to some real problems. I could in theroy mandate casteration to work in a field ( a extreme example i realize) and you'll be fine with that.  

The Yankees have pretty strict physical appearance policy

If i want to have a mustache I can, but, they probably will use whatever means is at their disposal to convince me that that is a bad choice, depending on how strongly I feel about it may determine my ability to be a Yankee or be forced to look for work someplace else that will work with me more.   Of course the superior or uniquely skilled person may get preferential treatment in situations like this as well.

I didnt say I was fine with it at all.  

 

 

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1 minute ago, cjf711 said:

The Yankees have pretty strict physical appearance policy

If i want to have a mustache I can, but, they probably will use whatever means is at their disposal to convince me that that is a bad choice, depending on how strongly I feel about it may determine my ability to be a Yankee or be forced to look for work someplace else that will work with me more.   Of course the superior or uniquely skilled person may get preferential treatment in situations like this as well.

I didnt say I was fine with it at all.  

 

 

But a mustache or lack of one is not a permanent thing. You want one, you can grow it back, if you grow one and don't like it. You can shave it.

Once they inject you, your past the point of no return. They get it wrong on the side effects. They take responsibility for that too? You mandate something in your profession and it goes wrong. You going to take responsibility for mandating it and help out financially for care for the side effects and possible long term damage?

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Why does anyone really think there will be a vaccine for this? Sure there is always a first time but do you really think this will be the one?

It’s possible, Roper fears, that COVID-19 could be a virus that proves resistant to vaccination. “This may be one,” she says. “If we have one, this is going to be it, I think.” The FDA has never approved a vaccine for humans that is effective against any member of the coronavirus family, which includes SARS, MERS, and several that cause the common cold.

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2020/04/will-there-be-a-coronavirus-vaccine-maybe-not.html

 

Coronavirus vaccine challenges

 

Past research on vaccines for coronaviruses has also identified some challenges to developing a COVID-19 vaccine, including:

  • Ensuring vaccine safety. Several vaccines for SARS have been tested in animals. Most of the vaccines improved the animals' survival but didn't prevent infection. Some vaccines also caused complications, such as lung damage. A COVID-19 vaccine will need to be thoroughly tested to make sure it's safe for humans.
  • Providing long-term protection. After infection with coronaviruses, re-infection with the same virus — though usually mild and only happening in a fraction of people — is possible after a period of months or years. An effective COVID-19 vaccine will need to provide people with long-term infection protection.
  • Protecting older people. People older than age 50 are at higher risk of severe COVID-19. But older people usually don't respond to vaccines as well as younger people. An ideal COVID-19 vaccine would work well for this age group.
  • Because of the seriousness of the COVID-19 pandemic, vaccine regulators might fast-track some of these steps. But it's unlikely that a COVID-19 vaccine will become available sooner than six months after clinical trials start. Realistically, a vaccine will take 12 to 18 months or longer to develop and test in human clinical trials. And we don't know yet whether an effective vaccine is possible for this virus.

    If a vaccine is approved, it will take time to produce, distribute and administer to the global population.

  • https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/coronavirus/in-depth/coronavirus-vaccine/art-20484859

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2 hours ago, Reichow7120 said:

But a mustache or lack of one is not a permanent thing. You want one, you can grow it back, if you grow one and don't like it. You can shave it.

Once they inject you, your past the point of no return. They get it wrong on the side effects. They take responsibility for that too? You mandate something in your profession and it goes wrong. You going to take responsibility for mandating it and help out financially for care for the side effects and possible long term damage?

I understand what you are saying, but, no, employers will not take responsibility, they will claim the FDA told them it was safe if there are long term issues.   It stinks, but, thats what will happen and people will have to band together and go after the vaccine maker, who will then try to blame everyone for rushing them...

 

 

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37 minutes ago, cjf711 said:

I understand what you are saying, but, no, employers will not take responsibility, they will claim the FDA told them it was safe if there are long term issues.   It stinks, but, thats what will happen and people will have to band together and go after the vaccine maker, who will then try to blame everyone for rushing them...

 

 

Which are protected which is my point exactly.  Catch 22. So it's a game of pass the buck. You force your employees to take it. Something goes wrong you pass the blame to the maker who is immune from litigation which leaves these people a---s hanging in the wind with no legal recourse. 

Or you let the person decide if they want it early or wait until proper testing is done. Have a sunset clause a few years out. If it proves safe, then make them do it. Lets not try having history's largest mass medical experiment by forcing people to chose. Most of these RNs are stuck in a rock and a hard place. Most spent big bucks to get to that point. You walk away and no one will hire you. That money might as well be flushed down the toilet. Its Its not like firing a factory worker with minimal education. I realize that lately Choice seems to be a bad word in this world but someone should try it. You'd be amazed how far some reasonableness might go.

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12 minutes ago, Reichow7120 said:

Which are protected which is my point exactly.  Catch 22. So it's a game of pass the buck. You force your employees to take it. Something goes wrong you pass the blame to the maker who is immune from litigation which leaves these people a---s hanging in the wind with no legal recourse. 

Or you let the person decide if they want it early or wait until proper testing is done. Have a sunset clause a few years out. If it proves safe, then make them do it. Lets not try having history's largest mass medical experiment by forcing people to chose. Most of these RNs are stuck in a rock and a hard place. Most spent big bucks to get to that point. You walk away and no one will hire you. That money might as well be flushed down the toilet. Its Its not like firing a factory worker with minimal education. I realize that lately Choice seems to be a bad word in this world but someone should try it. You'd be amazed how far some reasonableness might go.

What if we do like you say,   Im going to let everyone make their own decisions, sounds like common sense.   The scenario i see playing out is, a nurse or someone under the employers umbrella goes out and says no vaccine,  they get sick and transmit the disease to a few people.  Lets say NONE of those people even die, but, can trace exposure back to your company... what about missed work these newly infected people incur?  Or healthcare costs?  Who is responsible for that exposure?   How can these people not say... There is an approved vaccine!!!! why have you not taken proper precautions?????  You are liable for damages incurred by me because of your employee.

Its this reason and the almost guaranteed litigation against a business that makes me think the only thing that can happen is a mandated vaccine (IF APPROVED).  Yes there is risk of problems down the road, but, seems to me there is a greater risk for the businesses right now if they allow choice.

are there lawyers on this site?   Id love to know what the real law says about this sort of thing?  One would think it would be a huge issue given the seemingly large number of people who are not excited about this particular vaccine.   

 

 

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10 minutes ago, cjf711 said:

What if we do like you say,   Im going to let everyone make their own decisions, sounds like common sense.   The scenario i see playing out is, a nurse or someone under the employers umbrella goes out and says no vaccine,  they get sick and transmit the disease to a few people.  Lets say NONE of those people even die, but, can trace exposure back to your company... what about missed work these newly infected people incur?  Or healthcare costs?  Who is responsible for that exposure?   How can these people not say... There is an approved vaccine!!!! why have you not taken proper precautions?????  You are liable for damages incurred by me because of your employee.

Its this reason and the almost guaranteed litigation against a business that makes me think the only thing that can happen is a mandated vaccine (IF APPROVED).  Yes there is risk of problems down the road, but, seems to me there is a greater risk for the businesses right now if they allow choice.

are there lawyers on this site?   Id love to know what the real law says about this sort of thing?  One would think it would be a huge issue given the seemingly large number of people who are not excited about this particular vaccine.   

 

 

What has changed from before? Been a law passed that im unaware of?  ( the way things are going i wouldn't put it passed anyone) you dealt with flu, pneumonia,  pink eye, etc,etc. Did anyone get sued for that? It in theroy applies to this too. Flu can kill you, Pneumonia can kill you. Staff infections can kill you. Are you in the know that we've gone that far down the rabbit hole?

You're putting a lot of faith in people in high places that may or may not have the right judgment in this type of situation. Or other motives. When has the government ever gotten anything wrong? Right ( WMDs in Iraq)

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5 minutes ago, Reichow7120 said:

What has changed from before? Been a law passed that im unaware of?  ( the way things are going i wouldn't put it passed anyone) you dealt with flu, pneumonia,  pink eye, etc,etc. Did anyone get sued for that? It in theroy applies to this too. Flu can kill you, Pneumonia can kill you. Staff infections can kill you. Are you in the know that we've gone that far down the rabbit hole?

I dont know anything except that if a guy trips on the welcome mat at my front door he may try to sue me.

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8 minutes ago, cjf711 said:

I dont know anything except that if a guy trips on the welcome mat at my front door he may try to sue me.

Ive yet to hear about people getting sued because of a widespread virus circulating around. You placed the mat. You didn't place the virus.

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2 hours ago, jass1660 said:

Covid20 is on its way.....

The precedent is being set now.

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6 hours ago, cjf711 said:

You work for the man, you follow the mans rules.  You dont like it, become the man and carry the burdens of the man.   That just seems to be the way it is, doesnt mean its the right way it should be.   

In my multiple business's, I am the man and I do carry the burdens of the man. I rely heavily on my legal counsel and risk managers, which I pay for professional guidance. 

I will issue no dictates to any of my employees, as of this writing, well over several thousand employees in various occupations, that I will not perform myself.  If and when a vaccine is available, based on readily available advise from professionals which I either employ or seek their services, I will take the vaccine prior to mandating any employee take the vaccine.  Currently I bid on several government contracts and generally am a successful bidder.  In the event the government or entity which which I am dealing requires a mandatory vaccine, and I am not comfortable with the vaccine, I will forgo the bidding process or, in the event I am the successful bidder, will turn down the contract.

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