Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Art From Coleman

How Many Knew This About Our British 'Friends'?

Recommended Posts

At the end, Dr. Felton explains the shortcomings that plagued the British bomber, (lack of service ceiling, lack of speed, and lack of range), the first two would have presented as many problems to overcome as existed with the B-29, before the Silverplate modifications, but I wonder IF the Consolidated B-32 would have been an alternate aircraft, OR, why didn't the US offer the British the use of one of their island bases, which would have lessened the distance.

It also raises the question as to why, IF the British were so heavily involved in the Manhattan Project, why did it take them years after the war, and several years AFTER the Soviets had tested their first atomic bomb, before the British developed and tested their own, offshore of Western Australia.

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The only comment I have here is all the handwringing about the civilian death toll with the two A bomb blasts, but nobody ever talks about nanjing/nanking and the 300,000 deaths in '37. That does not account for Pearl harbour, or the death march or what the death toll would have been trying to put an attack on mainland Japan. Nuff said for me, the history books are being rewritten for these atrocities, but that won't be brought up on the 6th.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The American Atomic Energy Act in 1946 restricted other countries from access to nuclear research, including Britain. Had they had the ability to access this information then they would have had a bomb roughly the same time as the US.

It's possible that a B32 bomb bay was not high enough to accommodate the  Fat Man type due to the high mounted wing design. That and B32 production was fairly minimal. The Island bases of Guam, Saipan and Tinian were still too far for a Lancaster.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, TomH said:

The American Atomic Energy Act in 1946 restricted other countries from access to nuclear research, including Britain. Had they had the ability to access this information then they would have had a bomb roughly the same time as the US.

It's possible that a B32 bomb bay was not high enough to accommodate the  Fat Man type due to the high mounted wing design. That and B32 production was fairly minimal. The Island bases of Guam, Saipan and Tinian were still too far for a Lancaster.

More around that

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tube_Alloys

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And after cancellation of the Arrow

http://www.avro-arrow.org/Arrow/employees.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avro_Vulcan

Known as "The Tin Triangle".  Including

"Falk (chief test pilot) demonstrated the Vulcan on several occasions and designed much of the cockpit layout. During the 1955 Farnborough Airshow he barrel-rolled a Vulcan at the top of the post-take-off climb; although safe, he was rebuked for this manoeuvre by the organisers, but only because performing aerobatics in an aircraft weighing 69 tons and with a 99-foot wingspan was "not the done thing"![3]"

A story I got via a bloke with a brother in the RAAF in discussion with  a U2 pilot down here on a "something"  That pilot's most terrifying moment was on a flight US to Germany when he "neglected" to talk to British air space.  And, very shortly, over the top of him was a big black shadow wanting to know who, why and various other awkward questions.  Seems there might have been specials of those too.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Dad was in the navy during WWII. He drove landing craft, taking marines to shore. When they dropped the bomb, all the soldiers and sailors had been practicing for the invasion of the Japanese mainland. 

They all expected to die.

The us expected the invasion would cost millions of lives.

The atomic bombs saved countless lives.

So many Purple Hearts were made up for the invasion of Japan that we still  haven't used them all up yet, 70 years later.

Thx-Ace 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 minutes ago, acem said:

Dad was in the navy during WWII. He drove landing craft, taking marines to shore. When they dropped the bomb, all the soldiers and sailors had been practicing for the invasion of the Japanese mainland. 

They all expected to die.

The us expected the invasion would cost millions of lives.

The atomic bombs saved countless lives.

So many Purple Hearts were made up for the invasion of Japan that we still  haven't used them all up yet, 70 years later.

Thx-Ace 

 

My Dad was In Europe at the tail end late winter early spring ‘45. They all thought they were going to Japan when Germany capitulated. The bomb stopped that. It also kept 100’s of thousands of fresh troops in Western Europe. What do you think the Soviets would have done if they weren’t there?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Very interesting.

 

It would have been interesting to ask my Grand Father about this.

During the war He was was chief of Fuselage construction of Lancaster Bomber at the Austin Airo plant in Birmingham .

Doubt he would have said much if it was secret.

 

 

Also I  have heard that apparently one of the crew members of one of the atomic raids lived out his life as a monk on Caldey Island off the coast of Tenby. Anout 10 miles from my home.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 hours ago, acem said:

Dad was in the navy during WWII. He drove landing craft, taking marines to shore. When they dropped the bomb, all the soldiers and sailors had been practicing for the invasion of the Japanese mainland. 

They all expected to die.

The us expected the invasion would cost millions of lives.

The atomic bombs saved countless lives.

So many Purple Hearts were made up for the invasion of Japan that we still  haven't used them all up yet, 70 years later.

Thx-Ace 

 

I was reading a book about this, I believe the invasion of Japan was operation Olympic, they said the  plans never mention one of the marine divisions after the first few days, it was expected to have been all but wiped out.  The expected casualties were staggering to say the least.  
 

In the end the bomb probably save the Japanese culture if the battles in the island hoping campaign were any indication of what was to come. Neither side was taking prisoners.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Why Japan lost. We had the where with all to invade them(and develop an atomic bomb). They couldn’t do either.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, AKwelder said:

I was reading a book about this, I believe the invasion of Japan was operation Olympic, they said the  plans never mention one of the marine divisions after the first few days, it was expected to have been all but wiped out.  The expected casualties were staggering to say the least.  
 

In the end the bomb probably save the Japanese culture if the battles in the island hoping campaign were any indication of what was to come. Neither side was taking prisoners.

I've mentioned this book before.

James D Hornfischer "America at  total war in the Pacific 1944-45"

Goes into the background of those decisions. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Dad talked about the islands they invaded. He said they shelled them with battleships and bombed with planes until it looked like the surface of the moon. Nothing alive and craters everywhere. Somehow many jap soldiers survived and fought to the death. Occasionally kamikaze planes would fly into a big ship, keeping everyone on edge.

The Japanese civilians were being armed as a last ditch effort. Dad thought it would have completely destroyed Japan to take it. The war would have gone on for years.

Thx-Ace 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, acem said:

The Japanese civilians were being armed as a last ditch effort. Dad thought it would have completely destroyed Japan to take it. The war would have gone on for years.

From what I have read. Through 1946 and a million American casualties .   The bomb was 100% the right decision.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 8/6/2020 at 7:36 PM, Ian Beale said:

By then they had Merlin 60 series and beyond available so that would have helped on powering a a "special" to unannounced  heights

AVRO had a clue or two - though the Tudor wasn't one of their best efforts.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avro

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avro_Canada
 

.

 

A bit more digging (OK - speculation!) around that

Toss this in for a "special"

The usual Merlin 24 in a Lancaster was 1510 hp at 9250 feet.

By that time they had the 2 speed 2 stage Merlins.

The Merlin 113 was 1435 hp at 27000 feet as in late Mosquitos

And  Lancasters were hauling 10 ton Grand Slams up to around 20,000 feet so 5 tons would have been easy.

And then

"B.VI

Nine aircraft converted from B.IIIs. Fitted with Merlin 85/87 which had two-stage superchargers, giving much improved high altitude performance. The B VI could achieve a maximum speed of 313 mph (505 km/h) at 18,200 ft (5,550 m) at 65,000 lb (29,500 kg) takeoff weight and a service ceiling of 28,500 ft (8,690 m) at the same weight. Climb to 28,000 ft (8,500 m) at 65,000 lb (29,500 kg) takeoff weight was accomplished in 44.8 minutes with a maximum climb rate of 1,080 ft/min (5.5 m/s) at 1,000 ft (305 m).[70] A Lancaster B VI was dived to a maximum indicated speed of 350 mph (565 km/h), or Mach 0.72 at 25,000 ft (7,620 m) in June 1944.[71] The Merlin 85/87 series engines were fitted with annular cowlings similar to the Avro Lincoln and three bladed paddle-type propellers were fitted. These aircraft were used by only Pathfinder units; by No. 7 Squadron RAF, No. 83 Squadron RAF, No. 405 Squadron RCAF and by No. 635 Squadron RAF. Often used as a "Master Bomber" the B VIs were allocated to RAF Bomber Command apart from two that were retained by Rolls-Royce for installation and flight testing.[72] Their dorsal and nose turrets were removed and faired-over. The more powerful engines proved troublesome in service and were disliked by ground maintenance staff for their rough running and propensity to 'surge and hunt', making synchronisation impossible. This was caused by variations in the fuel/air mixture and over time would damage the engine.[73] The B VI was withdrawn from operational service in November 1944 and surviving aircraft were used by Rolls-Royce, the Royal Aircraft Establishment and the Bomb Ballistics Unit (BBU) for various testing and experimental duties.[citation needed]"

(My bold)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avro_Lancaster#Variants

Since found that they had the extra wing span of early Lincolns by then (120 ft vs 102 ft)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avro_Lincoln

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...