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super m 4th gear in a staight m>


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what would the  the difference in speeds be between a super m 4th gear and a straight m. the reason was we were raking with the new Holland 258 today and just a little more speed would be nice, and also if you have a mta with a t.a. is that faster than a super m in 4th> thanks

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M is like a snail.............The one we had here for a bit we hardly ever used, speeds stunk.  I will say, 9 speed makes a great tractor out of them though, of course the one here didn't have that.

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9 hours ago, pt756 said:

so I have been looking this up what is the 7 mph gear that people talk about? is that the super m 4th gear?

yes

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TP is correct,  the stock M gearing the tractor just crawls, the Fast 4th gears included a faster 2nd & 3rd too, same as the Super M. But the Heisler or M&W 9-speeds really made a good tractor, the M, GREAT. The H was a little underpowered to be able to use the faster gears. Dad's '47 M that was traded for the SM-TA had a 9-spd, it was the first choice for jobs like raking hay, peg tooth harrowing, rotary hoeing, and hauling in hay or loads of oats or corn. The 9-speed saved a lot of wear & tear on the gears in the transmission, that HUGE gap between the 5 mph 4th and 16 mph 5th, you lost momentum when shifting on the go and probably ended up forcing the shift,  ground the gears. The jump on a Super H or Super M you can actually complete the shift.  The one saving thing the M had going for it, an M can actually start from a stop on level ground in 5th gear,  but any kind of load requires 4th gear, but gives you momentum to make the shift to 5th. An H really struggles to start in 5th, you almost need a hill to coast down.  Once you got into the high side of a nine speed equipped H or M it would be about like rowing thru the high range of a truck with a 9 -spd Road-Ranger.

   There were other benefits to the 9-speeds, like a more durable transmission pilot bearing. The stock H & M pilot bearing tended to wear, caused the transmission to slip out of 5th gear. When pulled really hard in 4th gear there was lots of radial thrust against the pilot bearing, in extreme cases, the knob on the end of the sliding gear shaft would break off. The Super H and Super M had that knob substantially increased in diameter, and larger bearing too, and with the fast 4th, less stress on the shaft.

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Can't be done easy because of the double gears on counter shaft and double second and third slider gear on main shaft with different teeth counts. Also  part of the SM counter shaft is a larger diameter. Best way to change is put the SM counter shaft in the M with all gears, sliders and the reverse idler gear. Input shaft and housing would be optional, but late M and the SM used a bigger front input shaft bearing so wouldn't hurt to add it. IH made a optional fast 4th attachment for a M, but would be like looking for hens teeth now. Some aftermarket companies made a faster forth also. Needed to install the 4th and 5th slider gear and the 3rd and 4th double gear on lower shaft. Complete rear will bolt on a M also. 9 speed may be cheaper, Sometimes sell with a average price of 200 above or below 500. when ground speed is raised with a 9 speed the PTO is also speed up. Can be a problem if you need above half or so throttle with the higher ground speed.   

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I think the best way to make an M faster is to haul it on a trailer like it should be.  Honestly it is cool that there are 66 year old to possibly 81 year old tractors still in use.... but give them the retirement they deserve.  They are old, and it just doesn't make sense to modify them.  The only work a letter series IH tractor should be doing is pulling itself onto a trailer at a show, or pulling in an antique club tractor pull.

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15 hours ago, J-Mech said:

I think the best way to make an M faster is to haul it on a trailer like it should be.  Honestly it is cool that there are 66 year old to possibly 81 year old tractors still in use.... but give them the retirement they deserve.  They are old, and it just doesn't make sense to modify them.  The only work a letter series IH tractor should be doing is pulling itself onto a trailer at a show, or pulling in an antique club tractor pull.

With all due respect and not disagreeing with you on sinking a bunch of money in 'em

Don't discount them entirely.

When my other two loader tractors, 1486 on baler and 656 on rake are 20 miles away in the hayfield.

This old girl will get the job done at home when a loader tractor is called for😃

IMG_20180514_181404040_HDR.jpg.d9bc331c31bd6e2b4137c21f0f9b2ed4.jpg

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21 hours ago, J-Mech said:

I think the best way to make an M faster is to haul it on a trailer like it should be.  Honestly it is cool that there are 66 year old to possibly 81 year old tractors still in use.... but give them the retirement they deserve.  They are old, and it just doesn't make sense to modify them.  The only work a letter series IH tractor should be doing is pulling itself onto a trailer at a show, or pulling in an antique club tractor pull.

Really, the worst thing you can do is leave anything with an engine sitting around doing nothing with bad gas and dead batterys. I don't think the op is going into custom farming with the M

If you put an ad in the Red power magazine I am sure you will get some calls for a M&W 9 speed that would be a nice winter project. It would make a huge diiference f for you and much more useful that just the 4th gear

 the attached image seems to have an issue with 4th and 5th but I believe the rest is correct

5ac228cbcb65c_MW9speeddecal.thumb.jpg.637495da7dec99b027d82cfe3528db3c.jpg

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40 years ago we had an h with the 9 speed transmission, well then I didn't appreciate all that much and of course it got sold, not realizing 40 years later, I would be interested again. same thing with nice mta.  needed money bad for 1066 motor, guy seen it in the shop made good offer thought well I will get another one, 30 years later still no mta,

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On 8/1/2020 at 10:04 AM, J-Mech said:

I think the best way to make an M faster is to haul it on a trailer like it should be.  Honestly it is cool that there are 66 year old to possibly 81 year old tractors still in use.... but give them the retirement they deserve.  They are old, and it just doesn't make sense to modify them.  The only work a letter series IH tractor should be doing is pulling itself onto a trailer at a show, or pulling in an antique club tractor pull.

Ummmmmm  

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No one has to agree with me.  Just my opinion.  I have no love for the letter series.  Pretty to look at restored, but outside of that, no love at all.

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Don’t use the Super Ms any more but those tractors were durable, not bad in fuel and reliable. But then again I never thought the 2 cyl were bad either. Here’s some representative pics f what we ran forever.didnt get power steering until 83 I was 13 ran that thing a lot and other super m and all the 2 cyl without power steering. One thing about a Super M and I have did this before 33 below zero Fahrenheit we were stuck with feed grinder 4020 jd on the snow. The M started in 2 turns on 6 volt and was running. Pulled 4020 off the ice we had m chained up. Dad even pushed a cat 14 blade down the ditch once with it. He cleared a path in field then went up on road and gave the blade a push down hill.

40BFB05C-43C9-478C-AA21-1C64BB4105FC.png

7C04B2EE-3450-4B1A-9FDA-38BC14EF6CA5.png

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14 hours ago, J-Mech said:

No one has to agree with me.  Just my opinion.  I have no love for the letter series.  Pretty to look at restored, but outside of that, no love at all.

I'm the same way. Dad had a fleet of those when he passed away. He grew up with them. I told mom I can't use any of those with their limited capabilities and wasn't going to buy any. Sold them all for her. I grew up with stuff 20 years newer and that's what I like. Someone 20 years younger than me probably thinks my mid to late 70s tractors are limited in today's world, especially when they are open station except for the 3588. We all have our tractors of choice we like.

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This is all well and good, but you have to find the parts, and consider the economics.

We're talking about a $900 tractor here on average (that's what good running, but not pretty, M's bring around here). Is it really worth spending another $900 to swap in the faster gears? I'm not passing judgement here; this is a question you will have to answer to yourself, and/or your wife who may not be that into dropping another $900 on that "old junk."

$900 because it's not just the two gears. You can easily spend that on bearings, seals, and gaskets because you're going to find carnage in there unless you're extremely lucky.

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Matt and J you guys aren't stupid and I want to ask a friendly question

J you spent 100s of hrs on a 4586 (?) some would question the wisdom in that as it old and could suffer a major failure at any time

 Same with you Matt! you recently bought the 1086- depending on the hours when it suffers a major failure what will you do? engine or rearend goes and you have  to wonder what next? should I fix it?

$900 is absolutely nothing on repairs these days. How much did it cost you guys to change all filters and fluids in those tractors when you got them/ If the OP needs an extra tractor to rake hay and it costs $500-900 what can he buy for 4-5000 that could need $$$$ spent on it?

ALL IH products are OLD  these question are ones that have to be asked but it is their money

If what you guys state was always followed there is no use having a forum or magazine dedicated to the restoration and preservation of International Harvester history and equipment IMHO

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J will likely point out the the 4586 was not his decision, he just got the work!    

I honestly am with J on this....I grew up with a JD B, 400, 806, 1066, etc.  I've worked on them all.  And until this year, the B still pulled a hay rake and the sweet corn planter.  I too love looking at old restored tractors.  BUT....I personally consider the 806 / 4020 the line when people start talking "modern tractors still usable on the farm.  Little things like live PTO, hydraulics capability, power steering, 3pt, wide front,  parts availability, spin on filters (if updated), etc.  Earlier series tractor lacking some or all of these - just can't do a lot of the jobs as efficiently...or at all.   Example-  Dads 400 and the 666 I recently purchased are generally the same physical size of tractor, use the same basic rear end even.   The 400 hydraulics would not lift an 8-30 planter with seed in the boxes.  The 666 lifts it just fine.  Couldn't mow ditches with the 400--- narrow front and no 3pt.  The upgraded hydraulics, wide front, 3pt, power steering, diesel, better seat, etc add up to a much more capable tractor (an extra 25HP doesn't hurt either....)  Of course, there are plenty of people who would say I was crazy to spend $1300 installing a roll bar on such a small old useless POS when I could have bought a tractor with a cab & A/C.

Of course, all of that doesn't matter if you find YOUR tractor....you know, the one you just love the style, operation, etc. etc.   

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but the OP wants to rake hay with a 258 rake . ground driven old fashioned rake- no pto  . I have most of the tractors mentioned in this thread and I would rather use my 434 than my 656 that is basically the same as your 666 but he didn't ask me that

just sayin

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20 minutes ago, hillman said:

but the OP wants to rake hay with a 258 rake . ground driven old fashioned rake- no pto  . I have most of the tractors mentioned in this thread and I would rather use my 434 than my 656 that is basically the same as your 666 but he didn't ask me that

just sayin

+1, it's a 258 rake!  

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pt756, the standard M 4th gear was a 29T driving gear mated with a 34T driven gear.  The 7mph 4th gear option changed those to a 34T driving gear and a 29T driven gear.  See below for the speeds in all of the gears for the M, Super M, and M with M&W.  Note: if you go looking for an M&W, they were different for the M and Super M.  If you look for a Heisler, they were different kits depending on which PTO you have, if you have creeper low, if you have high speed 4th, and if your tractor was an early serial number.  If you want more info, let me know.

We've had 3 M's over the years and a W6.  One M  and the W6 was equipped with the fast 4th, one was equipped with creeper low.  For raking, the stock M 4th is frustratingly slow.  It didn't take long for me on the W6 to lap my dad on the M.

image.thumb.png.c108b99734a898d2afa4acd78e47b7b4.png

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One thing I always hated about raking with the B was the front tires ran over the row.   On the other hand, I had a 4 star tedder hooked to the not-live PTO on it....and when you stopped the tedder stopped, and then started again....and you literally could not see where you had stopped.  When you stop with the newer tractor on the tedder it always kept throwing hay into a little pile, then leave a gap when you go again!   So...go figure!

Last raking I did, I got the old steel wheel IHC rake and hooked it onto the Polaris Ranger!   Worked great!

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On 8/2/2020 at 3:38 PM, J-Mech said:

No one has to agree with me.  Just my opinion.  I have no love for the letter series.  Pretty to look at restored, but outside of that, no love at all.

Having driven our 4366 I think they are just as much in this category as the letter series ....

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