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searcyfarms

Got a Situation with Trees/CRP

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Do you have access to a supply of poultry litter/chicken manure?

Shred up the wood, then put the poultry manure to it to break down the cellulose fiber.  Stump grinder/stump auger as required to make it tillable.  I would not want to plow it right away, but a BIG offset disk behind a crawler would help to chew things up.

Where is this located?

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1 hour ago, 1586 Jeff said:

Do you have access to a supply of poultry litter/chicken manure?

Shred up the wood, then put the poultry manure to it to break down the cellulose fiber.  Stump grinder/stump auger as required to make it tillable.  I would not want to plow it right away, but a BIG offset disk behind a crawler would help to chew things up.

Where is this located?

i dont have access to chicken manure but could ask around - mostly hog confinement up around us. Its in NWMO about 65 miles north of KC 

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2 hours ago, searcyfarms said:

i dont have access to chicken manure but could ask around - mostly hog confinement up around us. Its in NWMO about 65 miles north of KC 

Hog manure should have a fair amount of nitrogen in it as well.  Do you live downwind?

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3 hours ago, searcyfarms said:

cedars are 10 to 15 inches thru/15 to 25 foot tall and pretty abundant - nothing that couldnt be mulched with the right machine but as discussed to be farmed/row cropped the stumps would be a problem - lots of ways to skin this cat that is why im rolling it around here to try to do the best for the people in this situation - thanks for all the replies guys some great ideas here 

 

3 hours ago, searcyfarms said:

What do you guys think on teh mower vs drums? I have never been around a drum area and seen the leftovers up close 

If it was mine I would definitely knock them down and pile em up. Roots and all. If they are in thicker bunches and fairly close I can see why it would be quicker with hoe. Does a quicker and cleaner job. It's when they're spread out more that a dozer is quicker. I will say that on trees that size I think I can do a quicker job with my big ctl than a cat. Just the travel time is so much faster. When I knock a tree down as soon as its laying down I hit the stump and bust off the dirt, back drag it in to the hole and then push the tree or bunch of trees. You can drive your truck over where I've cleared its smooth and no stumps left. I knocked down one bluff of 20+ inch poplars and dad went through it with the deep tiller a couple times and can't even tell there was trees there. But, when you're working for yourself it's a little different than hiring someone else. 

If you're hiring the job to get done, I would get someone with a drum mulcher. Its dirt when they're done and no tire pokers left. Some guys will not run them in to the ground for fear of hitting a stone. Can cause major damage on some models. But I've also seen where the guys will run them about a inch below the ground and it leaves an amazing finish. Looks like field ready to sow. Just dirt. If it is just being left in grass than a mower is fine and just keep on it. A good set of discs will chop up whatever roots are left from that smaller stuff either way. Heck we used to go straight through 1 to 2 inch willows and scrub with the discs. You hit it enough times it will chop up lol. 

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7 hours ago, 1586 Jeff said:

Hog manure should have a fair amount of nitrogen in it as well.  Do you live downwind?

no i dont, there are neighbors that are closest about 1/2 mile away and would have to cross their property to get those kind of spreaders into the property, the access we have would have to be made with a dozer across two creeks to get tank spreaders in etc

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On 7/31/2020 at 10:55 AM, searcyfarms said:

heres teh scoop - my buddy started taking care of some property for a neighbor that lives out of state appx 25yrs ago - batwing mowing - discing - edge feathering - controlled burns to maintain CRP requirements for the owner. 

We are talking 170acrs of CRP - there was a misunderstanding of rules/trees and lack of communication that has ended up in a serious situation. 

I have been helping him maintain it in the last 10 yrs or so by driving his tractor/batwing or taking mine over and mowing - we also split the rental of a front mount brush cutter for my SS as there are several acres of black locusts that are VERY invasive and they had gotten away from him - that is when my SS blew a hose and caught on fire and burned up - bad deal - NOW the locusts have grown back, he didnt take care of a 25 acre piece because of access which we wont go into that - i called him out on it - it has CEDARs that are 12yrs + old and other misc brush/trees - I have had two people look at it to give me bids/idea what to do with it. 

Here is where we are at - 

both bidders are thinking 20 to 25K  to remove the cedars then mow the remaining acreage where trees have grown up - we are talking prob 35 acres of trees/brush at least and possibly up to 40 - all of that will have to be mowed with a brush mulcher of some sort on a SS or something that wont puncture tires due to all the thorns and stobs from locust and hedge. Most if not all is too big for a Tractor w/batwing and I would NEVER drive my stuff through it and neither would the guy that bid it. 

One guy is our neighbor up home that I grew up with/worked for his dad on their farm, and still farms/share crops our row crop ground. He shot me straight and said he would not even do anything or waste any time/money until it was ALL killed out with brush killer, he said a helicopter is the only way to get that done. 

Do any of you know what they charge for helicopter spraying? is it per acre like a spray rig and then aerial fees or ? Anyone had spraying with helicopter done that has any idea? I am think probably 5 to 10K or maybe im totally off base? I have called an AGRI spray company and they said they cant use their spray rigs on it and will have to get bids from a helicopter guy they use. 

So my buddy/land owner is looking at 30 to 35K is what we are thinking to get this all cleaned up to the extent we could possibly maintain it going forward - owner has 2 yrs to get cleaned up before the CRP contract is up and they have said its either cleaned up before a new contract will be considered or she will be looking at penalties when they go to pay her and inspect. My perspective is I need to inform the owner this will be another yr or two of spraying to keep the trees under control especially those black locusts that try to come back - it will also have to be mowed with a SS where we do all this becuase of the thorns/stobs that will be left behind. 

The owner is not aware its this bad and will take this kind of $$ to get it back in shape. Yes  my buddy is a lot to blame for this situation and is concerned he might be sued. That is another deal. I have taken over communications with the owner and will be maintaining it going forward. I am just looking at teh proper bidding to get my ducks in a row before he drops the bomb on this situation. I asked him to do it because he is at fault, he has agreed last time we talked.  I think my buddy will be delivering the news and me on the conf call to help field the explosion and see what happens. 

He has to own this and deal with the fallout. I am just trying to help the owner do it right going forward. My buddy is overwhelmed with other things in life right now so cant keep up with it. 

What are your thoughts on the spraying costs? 

I have read and reread your original post and I have a few questions?

Is there a written contract between the landowner (the lessor) and the current operator (the lessee)? Is there any contract between the current lessee and yourself to perform a specific task?  Did the current lessor make periodic payments to the lessee for periodic tasks performed on the property, and did the lessor or lessee make payment to you?  In the alternative, is the lessee making payments to the lessor for use of the property?

You state the current owner is unaware of the severity of the problem and you "have taken over communications with the owner and will be maintaining it going forward".  By whose authority are you undertaking the new responsibility?  At some point the lessee had a duty to inform the lessor of the ongoing condition of the property.

Based on the statements you have made, it appears you have some form of partnership with the lessor and in the event litigation for damages and failure to perform is forthcoming, you may well find yourself involved in the proceedings.

Have you performed a Return on Investment analysis for the current situation?  It appears whatever direction this situation is headed, someone will have to make a major infusion of cash to pay for the cleanup and those costs will make the current valuation upside down.  In the event you have no contractual obligations, I would advise you to get out while the getting is good - PUNT.  

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I would take the hit, and sell it to tree huggers.

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5 hours ago, RichardDSalyer said:

I have read and reread your original post and I have a few questions?

Is there a written contract between the landowner (the lessor) and the current operator (the lessee)? Is there any contract between the current lessee and yourself to perform a specific task?  Did the current lessor make periodic payments to the lessee for periodic tasks performed on the property, and did the lessor or lessee make payment to you?  In the alternative, is the lessee making payments to the lessor for use of the property?

You state the current owner is unaware of the severity of the problem and you "have taken over communications with the owner and will be maintaining it going forward".  By whose authority are you undertaking the new responsibility?  At some point the lessee had a duty to inform the lessor of the ongoing condition of the property.

Based on the statements you have made, it appears you have some form of partnership with the lessor and in the event litigation for damages and failure to perform is forthcoming, you may well find yourself involved in the proceedings.

Have you performed a Return on Investment analysis for the current situation?  It appears whatever direction this situation is headed, someone will have to make a major infusion of cash to pay for the cleanup and those costs will make the current valuation upside down.  In the event you have no contractual obligations, I would advise you to get out while the getting is good - PUNT.  

1) nothing written only verbal - there is no LESSEE, my buddy was just taking care of it for them as the owners are friends of family and he hunted on it. The family just asked that he keep it up to whatever the FSA said was needed regarding contractual obligations of the FSA-CRP program. 

2) No payments have ever been made by my buddy to the family, they only paid him for mowing/discing as required when he sent them a bill. He used the FSA pricing structure for the amounts of acres he maintained. 

3) my buddy paid me for helping him out a couple times for using my equipment basically because he was busy, tractor broke, implement broke and he was afraid he could not get whatever work was required done during FSA/CRP dates. I spent 2 days trying to cut out all the locusts and rented a mower and LITERALLY burned up my skid steer in the process and never received a dime for that - again just trying to help my buddy out. 

4) correct they are aware of the trees and issues but not aware that it would be this extensive to have it removed - we do not have anythign in writing as far as bids go just verbal approximations and recommendations but its not going to be cheap it appears regardless. 

5) no partnership at all nor payments from me to anyone for anything, I have only been involved to help out my buddy because i felt sorry for him and he needed help

6) I had never spoken to the lessor/owners until about 2 months ago when my buddy asked me to step in because he just couldnt do it anymore. He asked me to see what needed to be done this year and then see about getting bids on the cleanup. 

7) No ROI - likely the land would not change in value any if at all. So many want hunting ground some pay more for that. Trees only help that. The ground is POOR hence the cheap CRP payments and ability to get it enrolled. They dont like to enroll GOOD dirt in our counties. They had it appraised a couple yrs ago and it appraised at 2200 to 2600 is what my buddy told me. They found out the realtor fees would be 30 to 40 K and never listed it. Said they would let it ride out till they die. Its been in CRP between 35/40yrs im pretty sure. 

Its owned by elderly people - not sure how old other than over 87 - kids that can afford it dont want it, other cant afford it. None of them have ever been to the property to my knowledge in all these years. 

These kids are OLDER than I am. 

 

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19 minutes ago, searcyfarms said:

1) nothing written only verbal - there is no LESSEE, my buddy was just taking care of it for them as the owners are friends of family and he hunted on it. The family just asked that he keep it up to whatever the FSA said was needed regarding contractual obligations of the FSA-CRP program. 

2) No payments have ever been made by my buddy to the family, they only paid him for mowing/discing as required when he sent them a bill. He used the FSA pricing structure for the amounts of acres he maintained. 

3) my buddy paid me for helping him out a couple times for using my equipment basically because he was busy, tractor broke, implement broke and he was afraid he could not get whatever work was required done during FSA/CRP dates. I spent 2 days trying to cut out all the locusts and rented a mower and LITERALLY burned up my skid steer in the process and never received a dime for that - again just trying to help my buddy out. 

4) correct they are aware of the trees and issues but not aware that it would be this extensive to have it removed - we do not have anythign in writing as far as bids go just verbal approximations and recommendations but its not going to be cheap it appears regardless. 

5) no partnership at all nor payments from me to anyone for anything, I have only been involved to help out my buddy because i felt sorry for him and he needed help

6) I had never spoken to the lessor/owners until about 2 months ago when my buddy asked me to step in because he just couldnt do it anymore. He asked me to see what needed to be done this year and then see about getting bids on the cleanup. 

7) No ROI - likely the land would not change in value any if at all. So many want hunting ground some pay more for that. Trees only help that. The ground is POOR hence the cheap CRP payments and ability to get it enrolled. They dont like to enroll GOOD dirt in our counties. They had it appraised a couple yrs ago and it appraised at 2200 to 2600 is what my buddy told me. They found out the realtor fees would be 30 to 40 K and never listed it. Said they would let it ride out till they die. Its been in CRP between 35/40yrs im pretty sure. 

Its owned by elderly people - not sure how old other than over 87 - kids that can afford it dont want it, other cant afford it. None of them have ever been to the property to my knowledge in all these years. 

These kids are OLDER than I am. 

 

Cover your own hide regardless.  Friends are nice to have but it has always been my belief a man's responsibility and duty is to God, family and country, in that order.  Friends fall into the last category, country.

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yes and that is exactly why i am doing this and handling they way i am, my friend is family to me, we have been through life together since 10 yrs old, he stood with me at revival on the 3rd nite when i gave my life to the lord. i was scared and didnt know what was happening he said i will walk with you...............neither of us had a brother - we are each others only brother - my duty to god is to care for this lady as he felt it was his, she was widowed right after she and her husband retired and she had to move to the west coast for her children to take care of her. That is how this all started many years ago............

She got remarried but kept everything in her name 

 

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I think you could get it cleared with a big dozer cheaper not a little one. I didn't read through it all unless your buddy breached a contract. He just screwd up not liable. Landower should have been around or had someone there before trees grew to 40 foot. Have to real lucrative before i wanted anything to do with it. Still think a D6 be cheaper than flying it twice and still dozing. Can take logged over land back cheaper than most think. 

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