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Dying battery question (1066)


Coytee
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Something like 18 months ago, I bought this 1066.  Among other items, I yanked the two 12V batteries that were on home-made trays on either side, I replaced them with the 6V long skinny type that tuck in.  Yanked/replaced the dead alternator, replaced with new.  Yanked replaced entire wiring harness, replaced with new.  Replaced Ammeter, ignition and all bulbs.

Long story short, it's not charging.  Took alternator out yesterday, took into town and it checked out fine.  I've not popped the hood yet but I'm thinking I might have a broken wire somewhere (possibly squirrel??) BUT, what I'm also wondering is, oh....  before that....  I should comment that I've used it twice with suspicion that I had an issue brewing.  My Ammeter is NOT registering anything.  It's not moving to positive, negative nothing.  Even when I turn all lights on/off.  Additionally, yesterday, I removed both leads of both batteries and the lights went out.  So the lights are running on battery power, not alternator.

Which has me wondering....  First, where else to look?  I'm eyeballing the ammeter thinking I might have a loose wire there but also, if I don't, I'm wondering what happens if the ammeter itself goes bad?  I was thinking on putting a jumper across the terminals to then see if  the lights work (presuming all wires are intact)

With new harness, batteries, alternator I'm thinking it has to be either a chewed wire, something came undone or maybe the ammeter (if that going bad is enough to prevent power through it?)

Then, we have the fuse (assembly also replaced with new)  If the fuse blew I would expect a dead machine verses non-charging.  I've not checked it yet.  Going to dig into this over weekend.

Any thoughts are appreciated.

 

Side comment, when I took my VOM to the batteries while running, they were showing about 12.4 volts.  I then took probe to the large output wire on the BACK of the alternator and not sure if I did it right, but grounded it (VOM) to machine and couldn't find any power out of that output.  (this is when I took it into town and it checked out OK)

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OH, the alternator was seemingly running "at speed" with the idling engine but I discovered the belt was loose.  The belt can't be original NOR the correct one.  It really seems very very thin....  so, yesterday, I bought a new belt and got it on last night.

They gave me a GREEN belt!  I told the gal that I might get a lot of grief having what appears to be a JD green belt on a red machine.  She just put it in the bag.

 

 

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Does this still have a regulator? Or when you replaced the alt did you go with an internal regulated one? I dont recall. If still has external regulator it could have failed.

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My understanding is, it's internal.  I would like to think when I drove it into town to be tested, their machine would check the regulator??  (I have no clue).  I'd sure hate to be chasing gremlins and it's something (regulator) that got moved to the "checked out good" side of the equation.  

What struck me is a week or so ago, when I was cutting a field, I noticed that the ammeter was dead on, zero.  Usually it's a mark above.  I actually turned lights on/off to see if it moved and it didn't.  I kind of chalked it up to maybe it didn't move like I had thought....  and didn't worry about it.  Now, at the same time, when I started the tractor that day, it spun over sluggish.  I figured it had been a while since used so maybe the batteries were slightly undercharged.  the idea that they WERE'NT charging didn't enter my mind until the other day when I started putting the puzzle together.

 

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If its an internally regulated alternator and it check out good on the bench then i also would assume thats not your problem.

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First thing you need to do is rewire something to get the ammeter working.  I’m suspecting that when you replaced everything that something didn’t get connected correctly.  Do you have a manual with a schematic?

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33 minutes ago, Mike56073 said:

First thing you need to do is rewire something to get the ammeter working.  I’m suspecting that when you replaced everything that something didn’t get connected correctly.  Do you have a manual with a schematic?

I certainly leave the door open that I miswired the ammeter.....but, it WAS working.  It just didn't work like I expected it.

(preface:  I've never been sure exactly what the ammeter is telling me)

Example:  Start machine, turn lights on, ammeter goes to positive side of zero.  I would have thought it should be showing NEGATIVE as the lights present a draw to the battery which now, is "less than full charge"....  as the batteries approach full charge, I would have expected the ammeter to gravitate back towards zero.  It didn't work that way.

I think I've since been told that it measures the amount of output of the alternator so, the bigger drain (lights) on the system, the more the alternator puts out, the HIGHER the ammeter reads.....  totally opposite of what I had thought.

I am still not 100% clear on what it's telling me.  Just that I bought a new one and it WAS moving (right or wrong I can't swear, just that it WAS moving, generally on the positive side of zero)

Today, it's not moving at all.....totally unresponsive.

 

 

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https://cngco.com/wiring_diagrams.html 

Heres this incase you need it for reference. Why dont you print it out, highlight the wires in question, and go take a gander at what you have. Sounds like it was working before but make sure something wasnt wrong from day 1 and burnt up something else along the way. 

Your ammeter is measuring amperage (current flow) of your power. If you'll pay special attention to how it is wired in the diagram you'll see that most of your components (lights,ignition) go through this meter. The more your system draws "amperage"  (in a working system) the more the alternator needs to put out. So it's safe to say at first startup your batteries just started your tractor and are slightly discharged from sitting they will need to be brought up to par. Amp gauge should be highest right now. As it starts to get where it needs to be the alternator should be backing off. thus less amps, and gauge will be lower. 0 means nothing. Zero, zilch, no amps, no charging etc. Not good, broke, wont work, quit. Sorry got carried away. Negative means discharge (running off batteries)  hope this helps somewhat. If it were me and your positive everything is wired correctly and you have voltage up to your alternator on all 3 posts then I'd change the alternator. I swear about half the time the parts stores check an alternator for me they show good and they are not. Take it to a different store, for $50 try another one. But by all means please check for voltage first. 

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3 hours ago, Coytee said:

 

Then, we have the fuse (assembly also replaced with new)  If the fuse blew I would expect a dead machine verses non-charging.  I've not checked it yet.  Going to dig into this over weekend.

Any thoughts are appreciated.

 

 

The fuse is only power to the headlights. 

Like mentioned above check the power at the alternator. The stud with the nut and the number 2 at the plug should have 12 volt power at all times. The number 1 at the plug is key switched power. There is a resistor behind the cover between the brake and clutch pedals. Is it connected and is it passing power through? It's a 25 ohm resistor. 

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Correctly functioning ammeter shows if electricity is flowing into or out of battery.  If I remember correctly the original gauge failed the same way. It is not functioning but is not the problem. It is still carring current or the starter nor lights would work. There is at least one wire on the wrong side of that gauge to show charging with lights turned on. The fuse protects only the lights. So that's not the problem. In an earlier thread I gave instructions for wiring alternator to make it work. You followed those instruçtions (sort of) and it worked. Then you undid it all when you put in new harness. I suggest you revisit that thread.

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Update:  Just popped the hood.  Loosened & reattached the wires on the ammeter.  I had the schematic (thank you very much!!!) and according to the trace that I see, the battery wire goes on the "passenger" side of the gauge.  (on the left as you're sitting there looking at it) and the alternator wire goes on the other side along with the couple other wires.

Turns out, I had the MAIN wires correct but the secondary wire on the battery side.  Swapped the second wire and tightened things up....had to charge the battery to start BUT, now I noticed that the needle jumped around a bit while trying to start (think it jumped negative)  Before needle was dead in the water.

Got tractor started and now it's registering on the LEFT side, which as I think I understand, means it's in a discharge state.

I'm still nervous about buttoning it up until batteries are fully charged.  

 

When I was loosening one of the posts on it (happened to be the alternator side) the BASE part of the threaded post started to rotate to the left with the top nut.  Got me wondering if maybe there's a torn wire in there (??)  Looked at the wire coming from alternator to the gauge and no visible breaks or squirrel bites.  

Though I'm perplexed, I'm beginning to wonder if I've just got a bad gauge.

So, direct question:  If the ammeter is bad, would/COULD that prevent the tractor from charging???  If it dies, would it act a bit like an in line fuse in that it would prevent power to continue on or, is it wired parallel in there?  (I'm thinking to measure current it has to be in series? which would mean to ME that if it blows, no power is passing through)

?

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A bad alternator can cause the battery not to charge.

Before you do anything else take a voltmeter or multimeter and check voltages. Do not use a test light.

First with the engine off check the voltage at the battery and alternator connections.

With the key off you should have battery voltage at the large wire terminal and one in the plug on the alternator.

With the engine off the voltages should be around 12.0 to 12.5 volts.

Turn the key on and you should have some voltage at the other connector in the alternator plug.

Start the engine and leave the key on.

Check the voltage at the battery and large connection on the alternator. They should be over 13 volts. 

Do this and tell us the results.

Note if you use a single wire alternator you don't use the plug and must rev the engine to start the alternator charging. Otherwise the testing is the same.

Thx-Ace 

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35 minutes ago, Coytee said:

Update:  Just popped the hood.  Loosened & reattached the wires on the ammeter.  I had the schematic (thank you very much!!!) and according to the trace that I see, the battery wire goes on the "passenger" side of the gauge.  (on the left as you're sitting there looking at it) and the alternator wire goes on the other side along with the couple other wires.

Turns out, I had the MAIN wires correct but the secondary wire on the battery side.  Swapped the second wire and tightened things up....had to charge the battery to start BUT, now I noticed that the needle jumped around a bit while trying to start (think it jumped negative)  Before needle was dead in the water.

Got tractor started and now it's registering on the LEFT side, which as I think I understand, means it's in a discharge state.

I'm still nervous about buttoning it up until batteries are fully charged.  

 

When I was loosening one of the posts on it (happened to be the alternator side) the BASE part of the threaded post started to rotate to the left with the top nut.  Got me wondering if maybe there's a torn wire in there (??)  Looked at the wire coming from alternator to the gauge and no visible breaks or squirrel bites.  

Though I'm perplexed, I'm beginning to wonder if I've just got a bad gauge.

So, direct question:  If the ammeter is bad, would/COULD that prevent the tractor from charging???  If it dies, would it act a bit like an in line fuse in that it would prevent power to continue on or, is it wired parallel in there?  (I'm thinking to measure current it has to be in series? which would mean to ME that if it blows, no power is passing through)

?

hey guys, not to but in ace but maybe i can help a lil.........

There should be an exciter wire going to the alternator with 12v on it( some are a plug/wire ) if you unplug that and look for signal, OR if you apply 12v to the alternator manually from the battery it should excite the alternator and start charging regardless of engine speed. 

Next........regarding the ammeter, yes it would indicate the batteries are discharging if its running to the left of center/0 on the gauge. forget about the gauge,  just put your v/o meter on the battery studs, if its not running over 13 volts the batteries are NOT getting charge from the alternator - yes 12.5 to 12.0 would be accurate on a charged/good battery sitting - i was told by the guy i get my batteries from if you have a fully charged battery and its sitting idle/unplugged without a drain on it, it should still be 12.5 or above after sitting 5 days 

forget about all the other wiring/distractions and get the alternator identified to be charging first then u can see about getting everything else going, step by step, i kinda get the same way, SQUIRRELL...........why is that bolt loose over there - what is that new drip LOL let alone all the wiring debacles

 

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In answer to your direct question. Yes it can. But no its not. If starter and lights work. It is not the problem. Just a distraction. 

About the resistor. With the white 25 ohm risistor. You may need to rev engine to get alternator started. If there is any extra resistance in circuit. It may not start at all. The red 10 ohm resistor eliminates that problem. No resistance is needed for the operation of the alternator. In case you want to bypass to test.

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is the alternator case grounded ? Run a jumper from case to good ground , try it ?‍♂️??

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Here's what happened today.

Popped hood, moved the secondary wire from the battery side of meter to alternator side.  Put together & started.

As it was turning over (didn't start yet) the needle JUMPED.  Interesting because it has been dead. 

Charged battery some more, started machine and now, the needle jumped a bit but not much.  Checked batteries with VOM and they are "about" 12.4 volts.  Climbed back into seat...  put some revolutions to engine and BAM, needle on dash started to move , got back off to check batteries and now they're around 14.5 volts.  Also the needle is now further to the right than it's ever been.  For kicks, turned lights on....needle went down to zero or slightly negative (it's never done this either)

Other than the one wire that was on the battery terminal, I'm scratching my head because it seems it "jumped to life".  Maybe I had a poor connection (must have).

Decided to go cut for while to give time to charge up a bit.  As I was cutting, played with the lights a bit and the needle DOVE down to "about" zero.  Turn lights off and it popped up to the right but, not as far as it previously had been.  I'm taking this to mean the batteries are charging since it's pulling less amps out of the alternator (??)

Finished field, parked machine....  (near home so I can jump start if need be)  turned completely off, killed key, turned back on and it fired up as though nothing has ever happened.

So I'm a bit perplexed... and have to conclude I had a weak connection that I acciedently fixed while taking things apart.

 

If I may change the subject slightly....  I forget where I got all the lights from.  The fenders on this have two pockets instead of one.  So I've got some spot LED's in the front and four flood LED's on the fenders (two each).  Cut a field other day as it was getting dark....  thought I'd have to stop.  Then, thought nope....I'll try the lights and see how that works.  All I have to say is WOW, having all six of them burning at the same time was wonderful.  I had zero issues with seeing anything and it was near pitch black otherwise.

I might now have to hunt down some appropriate LED's and put them on my backhoe/loader. 

 

 

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2 hours ago, snoshoe said:

You may need to rev engine to get alternator started.

Yep, I didn't realize that until it  happened then the little voice in the back of my head.....slapped me upside the head.

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Had the same kind of issue with a so called one wire Denso alternator. On the back side of it there is a plug connection that has to be wired so it can excite  the alternator! So lesson learned, ONE WIRE DOES NOT ALWAYS MEAN WHAT IT SAYS !

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